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Author Topic:   Evolution is antithetical to racism
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 1 of 238 (422368)
09-16-2007 10:19 PM


Several posters over the years have implied that Evolution and Racism are related or that racism is supported by evolution.

The fact is that the Theory of Evolution is antithetical to the concept of racism. As we learn more, particularly in the field of genetics, it becomes increasingly obvious that there is almost no difference between humans of any kind, and in fact far less difference between humans and apes, or even humans and pond scum, than anyone imagined.

Humans and pond scum are directly related, we both are descended from a common ancestor.

Racism is one of the leftovers from an earlier period when mankind was far more ignorant than today, and in particular from the assumption that religious claims of exclusivity and dominance have any validity.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Adminnemooseus, posted 09-16-2007 10:25 PM jar has responded
 Message 5 by Doddy, posted 09-17-2007 1:49 AM jar has responded
 Message 7 by anglagard, posted 09-17-2007 7:22 PM jar has not yet responded
 Message 25 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-18-2007 11:28 AM jar has responded
 Message 39 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-18-2007 4:29 PM jar has responded

  
Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3867
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 238 (422371)
09-16-2007 10:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-16-2007 10:19 PM


Where to?
"Human Origins" forum?

Adminnemooseus


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 Message 1 by jar, posted 09-16-2007 10:19 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 3 of 238 (422377)
09-16-2007 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Adminnemooseus
09-16-2007 10:25 PM


Re: Where to?
No, I suggest Miscellaneous Topics in Creation/Evolution since it is not so much a matter of Human Origins as Human behavior.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Adminnemooseus
Director
Posts: 3867
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 4 of 238 (422383)
09-16-2007 10:40 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
Doddy
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 5 of 238 (422416)
09-17-2007 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-16-2007 10:19 PM


Arguing just for the sake of arguing here...
jar writes:

As we learn more, particularly in the field of genetics, it becomes increasingly obvious that there is almost no difference between humans of any kind, and in fact far less difference between humans and apes, or even humans and pond scum, than anyone imagined than anyone imagined.

Ok, but then we are on the slippery slope. If we are allowed to kill pond scum, which share % of their genes with us, and we are allowed to keep mice as pets which share %, there needs to be a dividing line in a continuum of relatedness where we say "doing X is now unacceptable". And, unless there is something else very obvious we can use to draw the line, we are left in a situtation where we can justify discrimination between organisms based on genes.

However, for a special creationist, there is an immutable division between humans and apes, and humans and pond scum. So, one can use that very obvious (to them) boundary to draw their lines. Evolutionists have no such luxury.


Help to inform the public - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!


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jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 6 of 238 (422460)
09-17-2007 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Doddy
09-17-2007 1:49 AM


Re: Arguing just for the sake of arguing here...
That is a poor argument anyway. The justification for killing plants and animals for food and keeping mice as pets is not a racial issue.

We need to be aware that when we kill a chicken as food we are killing a relative, when we have a pet we are hosting a relative and so we must make their lives and environment as joyful as possible.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2184
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 7 of 238 (422569)
09-17-2007 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
09-16-2007 10:19 PM


Another Way to Look at It
jar writes:

The fact is that the Theory of Evolution is antithetical to the concept of racism. As we learn more, particularly in the field of genetics, it becomes increasingly obvious that there is almost no difference between humans of any kind, and in fact far less difference between humans and apes, or even humans and pond scum, than anyone imagined.

Another way to view how the ToE is against racism is that all humans that currently exist are equally adapted to their environment. ABE - in general as the sum of a group, not necessarily applicable to down to individual level such as in cases of genetic disease.

Actually, the social science research I am familiar with verifies my personal experience regarding an opposite relationship. Namely that it is fundamentalism, which rejects the ToE, that has the high correlation with authoritarianism and racism. I think this is often shown by some posters here who often 'accidentally' let slip their own views.

Of course going into more detail would be the opposite of this thread and therefore would require its own topic.

Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


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Doddy
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 8 of 238 (422570)
09-17-2007 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jar
09-17-2007 9:15 AM


Re: Arguing just for the sake of arguing here...
jar writes:

The justification for killing plants and animals for food and keeping mice as pets is not a racial issue.

Not strictly, no. But race is just a sub-species (a division within a species), and evolutionists acknowledge that the human species is just one of the ape - Hominidae - family (division within that family) and the human-sheep division is just another division within the placental mammal infraclass. So why modifying behaviour based on one division allowable (humans and sheep, or humans and other great apes), but modifying your behaviour towards another isn't (between races)?

In other words, why does the phylogenetic difference between a human and a cat allow you to act differently to humans than you do to cats, but if you act even slightly different because of a much smaller (but still real) difference between humans and other humans it become unacceptable?

The creationists have no such problem, because they can claim that cats and humans are totally different kinds of organism, but humans are the same kind. Differences are irrelevant - kind is what matters.

Edited by Doddy, : phylogeny


Help to inform the public - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!


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 Message 6 by jar, posted 09-17-2007 9:15 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 9 of 238 (422572)
09-17-2007 7:37 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Doddy
09-17-2007 7:23 PM


Re: Arguing just for the sake of arguing here...
In other words, why does the phylogenetic difference between a human and a cat allow you to act differently to humans than you do to cats, but if you act even slightly different because of a much smaller (but still real) difference between humans and other humans it become unacceptable?

LOL

That's why that is such a silly argument on your part. There is absolutely nothing in the Theory of Evolution that could be used to justify such behavior.

Anyone who thinks they can use the Theory of Evolution to justify racism is simply showing their total ignorance.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 15 by JavaMan, posted 09-18-2007 8:01 AM jar has responded

  
Doddy
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


(1)
Message 10 of 238 (422730)
09-18-2007 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
09-17-2007 7:37 PM


Re: Arguing just for the sake of arguing here...
Well, evolution being a scientific theory, it can't dictate our ethics. But, it can inform them. It can affect the conclusions of the premises we use to justify our actions.

We may be allowed to neuter a cat because we think cats are less able to reason than we are, or less conscious than we are, or less whatever. Regardless of the justification, without the massive wall between kinds that creationists use, what well-defined boundary is there between Fluffy and the foreign guy down the street, who we also think can't reason as well as we can, or is in some other way less 'entitled' to our niceties?

While evolution may not justify racism (and I never said it did), creationism certainly works better than evolution to hold it back - they can appeal to 'humans, with a soul, as opposed to soulless animals and plants' or 'the kind created in God's image' as definitions of what shouldn't be discriminated against. Modern biological science tells us there is no clear-cut boundary between humans, and there is also no clear-cut boundary between all animals, or all lifeforms.

So, instead of just laughing at me perhaps you should start to tell me WHY I am wrong, so that those who are a little less astute can know why you are laughing at me.

Edited by Doddy, : clarify

Edited by Doddy, : fixed spelling

Edited by Doddy, : grammar. Last edit, I promise


Help to inform the public - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by jar, posted 09-17-2007 7:37 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 413 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 11 of 238 (422733)
09-18-2007 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Doddy
09-18-2007 2:27 AM


Re: Arguing just for the sake of arguing here...
The idea that Creationism is somehow a ward against racism is to ignore history.

Creationists don't believe that all men are special and equal. They believe that they are the ones that God likes and the other people are the ones that God hates.

Creationism is at the foundation of every evil act carried out in "God's name". It's at the basis of the devistation wrought upon native people's the world over.

Creationism is nothing more than divine justification for US to kill THEM. After all, THEY are the sons of Cain.


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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2184
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 12 of 238 (422735)
09-18-2007 2:59 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Doddy
09-18-2007 2:27 AM


Re: Arguing just for the sake of arguing here...
doddy writes:

So, instead of just laughing at me perhaps you should start to tell me WHY I am wrong, so that those who are a little less astute can know why you are laughing at me.

Well, since jar is asleep and I'm stuck being awake until my pants dry, I may as well give it a shot.

Racism means distinguishing and discriminating between and amongst people because this given person looks, acts, or has a different historic background than the perpetrator of racism, generally, but not limited to the 'ruling class.' As you should notice, the term racism is limited to the interaction among the human species.

Specie-ism refers to the difference between humans and non-human animals and is usually associated with the agenda of PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals) as meaning that all animals (as opposed to plants, fungi, and bacteria) have equal rights to humans.

Please stop confusing racism with specie-ism, which is off topic in this thread. If you would like to introduce a PNT as to why specie-ism is either immoral or moral, please feel free to do so. However you may want to remember that the founders of PETA are hypocrites as they have personally benefited from animal research and that 2/3 of the animals they 'rescue' are euthanized, or in the vernacular, killed.

Edited by anglagard, : clarity of choice


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 13 of 238 (422738)
09-18-2007 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Nuggin
09-18-2007 2:39 AM


Re: Arguing just for the sake of arguing here...
Nuggin writes:

Creationists don't believe that all men are special and equal. They believe that they are the ones that God likes and the other people are the ones that God hates.

Oh, I know. But it's not a belief in special creation that does that, it's their belief in all the other parts of the Bible, plus a little extra innate prejudice.

Creationism protects against racism, I think, but the rest of their funny religious beliefs just fuel it. It's like mixing 10 parts ethanol with 1 part water and throwing it on a fire - the creationism part helps, but the rest doesn't.


Help to inform the public - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Nuggin, posted 09-18-2007 2:39 AM Nuggin has not yet responded

    
Doddy
Member (Idle past 3830 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 14 of 238 (422739)
09-18-2007 4:04 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by anglagard
09-18-2007 2:59 AM


Re: Arguing just for the sake of arguing here...
anglagard writes:

Please stop confusing racism with specie-ism, which is off topic in this thread.


It's not off topic at all. As jar pointed out in his OP, all life is related. And, all races are related. It's just a matter of degree, hence my slippery slope argument. Why shouldn't I be allowed to talk about the thick end of the wedge in a thread on the thin edge? It's like prohibiting me from talking about camels in a thread on camel noses.

And, as I pointed out, the term race (as Darwin used it), simply means sub-species or grouping within a species.

anglagard writes:

If you would like to introduce a PNT as to why specie-ism is either immoral or moral, please feel free to do so.

But I don't really care about whether it is or it isn't. All I want to introduce is the fact that specie-ism is considered fairly acceptable behaviour, and the theory of evolution, by stating the relationship between all organisms, leads us to either reject specie-ism or to accept racism - only drawing a sharp line on the slope, like creationists do, can prevent this.


Help to inform the public - contribute to the EvoWiki today!

What do you mean "You can't prove a negative"? Have you searched the whole universe for proofs of a negative statement? No? How do you know that they don't exist then?!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by anglagard, posted 09-18-2007 2:59 AM anglagard has not yet responded

    
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 240 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 15 of 238 (422756)
09-18-2007 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by jar
09-17-2007 7:37 PM


Re: Arguing just for the sake of arguing here...
I've got to defend Doddy's position here. He's not arguing for racism, or arguing against species-ism. He's just pointing out something that you and anglagard should be well aware of:

A scientific theory doesn't give us a guide to ethics.

It tells us what is the case, not what we ought to do. If the theory of evolution told us that there were quite distinct differences between the human races (rather than the opposite), would that justify us in being racist? I hope not. I hope that we would make our ethical judgement based on other factors, and still argue against racism. So how can it provide a guide in the opposite direction?

We are constantly telling creationists here that the ToE doesn't say anything about the existence of God or how we should behave (i.e. accepting the ToE doesn't mean you have to be an atheist or a nihilist), so how can it suddenly have ethical meaning when we want to defend a favourite ethical belief?


'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang
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