Message 1 of 111 (387627) 03-01-2007 4:02 PM

Some examples:

Whatever you do unto the least of these you do to me. (Jesus talking)

Any scriptures are open for discussion.

Faith/Belief?

Edited by Phat, : emphasis on theology rather than philosophy

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Message 3 of 111 (387644) 03-01-2007 5:37 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by Phat 03-01-2007 4:02 PM

And seeing as how the whole bible has several different moralities (thou shalt not kill; kill your enemy and rape their women), it would be royally stupid to claim inerrancy of moral messages. granted, some will try.

Message 4 of 111 (387647) 03-01-2007 6:00 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by Phat 03-01-2007 4:02 PM

I consider that a worthless buzz-phrase.

How can we possibly know what is foolishness to God? The wisdom of the world is all we have.

Message 5 of 111 (387664) 03-01-2007 7:37 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by Phat 03-01-2007 4:02 PM

I fail to see the significance of this thread.

In fact, we don't even have to look at current issues. Just look at some of our more popular examples from the past. Every time in our history when society was facing a change, like women's suffrage, civil rights, abolition, etc., the fundamentalists always said that the end of the world was coming and if women, blacks, etc. were allowed to vote god would bring his/her/its wrath upon this nation and rain down fire and brimstone.

What good is all this biblical moral high ground bullshit if the followers of this biblical moral high ground bullshit keep trying to oppress other people with their biblical moral high ground bullshit?

Message 6 of 111 (387677) 03-01-2007 9:10 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by Phat 03-01-2007 4:02 PM

Yes, Mark 9:35 does go that way.

quote:

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If any man desire to be first, the same shall be last of all, and servant of all.

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But then equality among all is promoted, such as in Mark 12:31

quote:

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Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

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This doesn't indicate considering other better, but merely equal. If you did love your neighbor more than yourself, you would be breaking this commandment.

Then, we have the idea of considering other worse than yourself, such as in 1 Cor 16:22

quote:

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If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't anathema mean banished or cursed? How can you banish or curse someone, if you wouldn't want that on yourself? Surely this would be considering another to be worse than yourself?

Completely useless strategy in game theory. Doesn't work - you get royally screwed. However, I can't see it contradicted anywhere in the New Testament.

Yes, 1 Cor 3:18-19:

quote:

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Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.

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This means then, that those philosophers and scientists we see debating creation (on both sides mind you) are fools.

But in Ephesians 5:15, it says this:

quote:

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See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise.

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And Psalms 5:5 says this:

quote:

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The foolish shall not stand in thy sight.

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So, if "wise in the way of the world = foolish", then "wise in the way of the world = bad", so Christians should not be going to school and getting degrees. Much like Bertrand Russell said: ""So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence."

Well yes, I can't see this contradicted any more than the first one you gave (in that banishing non-believers isn't nice), but it does also have some problems with the cruelty of the OT.

Anyway, you said I can have other scriptures, so I'd like to discuss the inerrancy of these two scriptures

quote:

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2 Thessalonians 3:6
"Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly..."

2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
"And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother."

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How does one 'admonish as a brother', without keeping company and with withdrawing? To 'keep company' is to be friends with and to withdraw means to remove yourself from their presence but, even though Jesus kept company with sinners, Christians must somehow admonish the unbelievers or bad Christians, without being their friend or even going near them. How, exactly?

Message 8 of 111 (387701) 03-02-2007 2:04 AM

Reply to: Message 1 by Phat 03-01-2007 4:02 PM

Does anyone see the correlation between Psalms 13 & 14 and Mattithyahu 7:13-14 or is it just me?

Shalom & Ahava,

John E562

Mat 7:13 “Enter in through the narrow gate! Because the gate is wide – and the way is broad – that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter in through it.

Mat 7:14 “Because the gate is narrow and the way is hard pressed1 which leads to life, and there are few who find it. Footnote: 1Or the way is afflicted.

Psa 13:1 How long would You forget me, O יהוה? Forever? How long would You hide Your face from me?

Psa 13:2 How long would I take counsel in my being, Grief in my heart day by day? How long would my enemy be exalted over me?

Psa 13:3 Look! Answer me, O יהוה my Elohim; Enlighten my eyes, Lest I sleep in death;

Psa 13:4 Lest my enemy say, “I have prevailed against him,” Lest my adversaries rejoice when I am moved.

Psa 13:5 But I have trusted in Your kindness; My heart rejoices in Your deliverance.

Psa 13:6 I sing to יהוה, Because He has been good to me.

Psa 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no יהוה.” They have done corruptly, They have done an abominable deed, There is no one who does good.

Psa 14:2 יהוה looked down from the heavens on the sons of mankind, To see if there is a wise one, seeking יהוה.

Psa 14:3 They have all turned aside, They have together become filthy; No one is doing good, not even one.

Psa 14:4 Have all the workers of wickedness no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on יהוה?

Psa 14:5 There they are in great fear, For יהוה is with the generation of the righteous.

Psa 14:6 You would put to shame the counsel of the poor, But יהוה is his refuge.

Psa 14:7 O that the deliverance of Yisra’ĕl Would be given out of Tsiyon! When יהוה turns back the captivity of His people, Let Ya’aqob rejoice, let Yisra’ĕl be glad.

Message 9 of 111 (387717) 03-02-2007 7:34 AM

Reply to: Message 6 by Doddy 03-01-2007 9:10 PM

Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

I realize that I am approaching the Bible from the perspective of how some would say....a giant quote-mine! ;)

From the standpoint of this thread, the Bible is being discussed as a source of philosophy. A fundamentalist may believe the book to be inerrant while a liberal critically thinking person may view the book as simply a collection of writings.

My stance in this thread is that while the book is not strictly innerrant, it is a source of wisdom and philosophy for many people. Given that this is so, I want to argue the position of why certain Biblically quote mined catch-phrases are used.

Are these pearls of wisdom...uttered by Jesus Christ and by supposedly spiritually enlightened Biblical authors such as David (Psalms) Solomon (Proverbs) and Saul aka Paul (Many New Testament Books) relevant as a philosophy and as a world view in modern life?

Good example! The first quote suggests that Paul wanted the church to draw a distinction in behaviorism. As an example, I may have many rowdy friends who still love to smoke a dozen bongs and drink a case of beer. I may well go over and see them occasionally and show them as much love as I show to anyone in the "church". (I try not to be exclusivist!) If I were to sit around and do bongs with them, I would be angering my Holy Spouse! This is not an admonishment to any of you...it is just a personal thing with me...please understand.

The second quote is keeping in line with Pauls discipline of the church and...the role of the church in regards to exclusivism. (Exclusivism is a topic unto itself! ;) )

This brings up the opportunity for another quote! :D

Jesus is praying in John 17. He mentions this in His prayer:

Perhaps we are showing how a staunch adherence to Fundamentalist Biblical philosophy promotes a sense of privilege and exclusivity in the church community. My question would then become: Well what do you expect us to do? Go around and let it all hang out...cussing and drinking and laughing at dirty jokes?

Another Quote popped into my head as an answer:

Doddy, I know you understand the Bible better than most fundamentalists and that you have chosen to follow your own philosophy in life and not that of this book. And I know that because of this, you are not necessarily following your own "evil" desires just because you do not worship God.

This could mean that

Of course, there is also a contrasting scripture:

Message 10 of 111 (387719) 03-02-2007 7:44 AM

Reply to: Message 8 by Yohuchanan562 03-02-2007 2:04 AM

This one seems to mean that nobody does any real good in and of themselves...but that it is Gods Spirit within us that makes any good thing happen at all. Perhaps an atheist would take offense to this, but I am coming at it from the view of a-priori and a positive truth claim, anyway.

I would maintain that a person could be in touch with God without even believing in Him.

Message 11 of 111 (387720) 03-02-2007 7:47 AM

Reply to: Message 7 by Jon 03-01-2007 10:48 PM

Don't you get enough of that in the daily world news? Yes, it is true that the Bible is chock full of it...but....what would be the point of discussing that philosophy? I am not advocating the Bible to be 100% inerrant, remember. I am simply bringing up quotes that I would be so inclined to follow philosophically.

Message 12 of 111 (387734) 03-02-2007 10:22 AM

Reply to: Message 1 by Phat 03-01-2007 4:02 PM

Right. Well, that's exactly what you'd tell people if you were trying to get someone to believe something idiotic.

"Oh, sure it sounds stupid that a guy could be executed by Romans and magically rise from the dead; that's the proof that it actually happened! Things that sound foolish are actually wisdom."

Message 13 of 111 (387740) 03-02-2007 11:23 AM

Reply to: Message 9 by Phat 03-02-2007 7:34 AM

That was my point: they are relevant only if they are relevant to us.

It is not "good philosophy" to take dictation from some external entity (which might not even exist) or to accept the "wisdom" of people who have a vested interest in our obedience. Philosophy (love of knowledge) ought to be about doing our own thinking.

That's not to say that we can't take "pearls of wisdom" as a starting point. But there's no excuse for using Bible quotes as The Answer™.

Message 14 of 111 (387758) 03-02-2007 2:27 PM

Reply to: Message 9 by Phat 03-02-2007 7:34 AM

quote:

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Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

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this doesn't count as a truism. A truism is something that, by definition, is true. A = A is a truism. The boy is red because he is red is a truism.

I don't see how your quote counts as a truism--how is it so obviously true, self evidently true? I see A + B = ??. Not A = A.

just a tiny nitpick.

Message 15 of 111 (387765) 03-02-2007 3:37 PM

Reply to: Message 9 by Phat 03-02-2007 7:34 AM

Now take the verse you shared from Proverbs.

By itself what does that sentence say? Not what you've been told it says, but what does it really say?

Trust Adonai for what? Don't rely on our own understanding of what?

By itself the sentence doesn't really say anything specific. When we read the chapters and verses preceding that verse we see that the writer was concerned with right and wrong behavior.

Look at the very beginning of Proverbs.

Even though individuals tend to have their own sense of right and wrong, we are governed by laws of the society we live within and the laws of Moses were "corporate" laws for the Hebrews taught to each child through the generations.

The problem with quote mining is that the original meaning can be lost and many alternative meanings can be applied to suit ones own purposes.

Is it really a truism for individuals not to ever rely on their own sense of right and wrong? There are times when the government is wrong. Even though the Torah is the basis for the Jewish lifestyle, the Jewish community has still changed over time. Whose sense of right and wrong determines the change?