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Author Topic:   A Miracle by Definition
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 38 (372377)
12-26-2006 11:29 PM


We were discussing the subject of miracles in chat one night, and the issue came up as to how one would define a miracle.
Websters writes:
miracle \mir-i-kel\ n 1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs 2 : an unusual event, thing, or accomplishment : wonder, marvel miraculous \me-ra-kye-les\ adj miraculously adv
Going with Websters definition, a miracle need not be by divine intervention. It need only be very unusual. Would winning the Powerball be defined as a miracle or only a fulfillment of astronomical odds?
If an individual had massive cancer in their body and a month or two later the Doctor found no cancer whatsoever, would this qualify as potential divine intervention?
Is everything in life bound to happen eventually according to the laws of statistical improbability and probability?
Faith/Belief or Coffee House, please

Replies to this message:
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 Message 26 by sidelined, posted 12-28-2006 5:31 PM Phat has not replied
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AdminNem
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 38 (372379)
12-26-2006 11:32 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
VerifyMe
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 38 (372392)
12-27-2006 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-26-2006 11:29 PM


Would winning the Powerball be defined as a miracle or only a fulfillment of astronomical odds?
IMO, a miracle is something which is against the odds like winning Powerball, but also something with exceptional or unusual circumstances. For example if you won Powerball with a ticket that you found in the gutter, that would be a miracle.
If an individual had massive cancer in their body and a month or two later the Doctor found no cancer whatsoever, would this qualify as potential divine intervention?
If the doctor can explain why there is suddenly no cancer, then it is just an occurance of a very improbable event. If there is no evidence as in the cancer just disappears and nothing can be found which may indicate why, then theres something more to it.
Is everything in life bound to happen eventually according to the laws of statistical improbability and probability?
Well there is ALWAYS the possibility of something happening or not happening. If i keep rolling a dice for the rest of my life i may never see a six. I may only ever see sixes. So according to the laws of probability, theres still a possibility everything could happen eventually. Probable or inprobable? well i think theres an infinite number of situations and variables to be able to ever guess.
I suppose it depends on your view on time... Is it infinite?
Edited by VerifyMe, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-26-2006 11:29 PM Phat has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 4 of 38 (372398)
12-27-2006 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by VerifyMe
12-27-2006 4:19 AM


World Views and formation of the definition
VerifyMe writes:
there is ALWAYS the possibility of something happening or not happening...according to the laws of probability, theres still a possibility everything could happen eventually. Probable or improbable? well i think theres an infinite number of situations and variables to be able to ever guess.
I suppose it depends on your view on time... Is it infinite?
It would seem that to speak of time throws us off topic! A Believer might assert, however, that God is infinite but that time is finite.
Lets examine some other possible definitions of the word, miracle and place them on record, here.
Columbia Encyclopedia writes:
miracle preternatural occurrence that is viewed as the expression of a divine will. Its awe and wonder lie in the fact that the cause is hidden.
The idea of the miracle occurs especially with the evolution of those highly developed religions that distinguish between natural law and divine will. Many supernatural or inexplicable events have been called miracles, but in the strict religious sense a miracle refers only to the direct intervention of divine will in the affairs of men.
The adherents of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam attribute miracles to the omnipotence of God, the Creator, who alone can change the natural events of the world or can delegate that power to a disciple, such as Moses, Jesus, or Muhammad.
From a strict scientific position, Jesus and the others have never been proven to exist...so thats why this topic is in Faith/Belief.
Some people view life arising on Earth as a chance interplay of favorable circumstances.
If the fact that we are here and we as a species have advanced and survived thus far, is this definable as a miracle?
Chance=probability.
Divine intervention implies above and beyond the behavior of natural law.
That encyclopedia used the term, preternatural.
Websters writes:
preternaturaladj 1 : exceeding what is natural 2 : inexplicable by ordinary means preternaturally adv
  • As to God intervening, we can agree that this is a matter of belief.
    If so, however, does that mean that any unusual event can be explained by probable/improbable models?
    In other words, the shirt I'm wearing is green. Would there ever be a point in time that it could suddenly switch to red?

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    Larni
    Member (Idle past 164 days)
    Posts: 4000
    From: Liverpool
    Joined: 09-16-2005


    Message 5 of 38 (372401)
    12-27-2006 8:07 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    12-26-2006 11:29 PM


    I would define a miracle as something done by a god.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-26-2006 11:29 PM Phat has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 6 of 38 (372402)
    12-27-2006 8:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 5 by Larni
    12-27-2006 8:07 AM


    Larni writes:
    I would define a miracle as something done by a god.
    So in other words, are we ruling out the ability of humans to ever initiate miracles? If a gifted surgeon were able to save a life in a way that was virtually unheard of, would that qualify as a miracle? If so, would it have to be an impressionable influence by God (or a god, as you put it) upon the surgeons ordinary skill and nerve?

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    nator
    Member (Idle past 2170 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 7 of 38 (372413)
    12-27-2006 9:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    12-26-2006 11:29 PM


    quote:
    If an individual had massive cancer in their body and a month or two later the Doctor found no cancer whatsoever, would this qualify as potential divine intervention?
    I don't se how. I think it would be classified as a complete remission of unknown origin.
    Calling it anything else is just a God of the Gaps explanation.
    Just because we don't understand why something happened doesn't mean that anything woo-woo is going on.
    quote:
    Is everything in life bound to happen eventually according to the laws of statistical improbability and probability?
    To me, a miracle is something that happens contrary to natural law.
    Finding the winning powerball ticket in the gutter is not a miracle, it is just a very improbable natural event.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 12-26-2006 11:29 PM Phat has not replied

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    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 5953 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 8 of 38 (372416)
    12-27-2006 10:27 AM
    Reply to: Message 6 by Phat
    12-27-2006 8:13 AM


    Miracles
    Well, phat, to answer your question.
    I would not consider the examples you have given as being miraculous. Any one of us would be thrilled to win the Powerball, or receive a sudden cure of terminal illness. I do think however that even the winner of the ticket would not consider it a true miracle, but maybe a gift of God's providence.
    As I see it God has no concern for monetary gains or temporary departure from an inevitable death. These are ends in themselves, and human ends at that.
    A miracle IMO is something albeit natural and highly improbable, which serves as a means to an end, and specifically a spiritual end.
    I have not known the occasion of winning the lottery to bring about a conversion for example.
    So what does concern God? We xianists would say 'the salvation of souls' and I might also add 'the preservation of His truth'. In the OT God is said to have intervened many times in order to strengthen the faith of His people and to clarify His will. I see no reason why this could not be continuing today.
    But think about Moses and the burning bush. If the story is true, I would think that modern science could find a few causes for a burning bush, maybe even one not consumed by the fire. I would not consider that as evidence that a miracle did not occur, but just change the defintion of miracle. I would say that God can use highly unusual natural signs to get our attention, but I would always look to the end result of the occurence.
    There are no 'miracles' which can be proven to have come from a God. That would be too much like God leaving evidence, and that would defeat the purpose of faith. But there are many instances of natural happenings of unlikely odds or unknown origin which have greatly changed the course of a religion.

    This message is a reply to:
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    jar
    Member (Idle past 395 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 9 of 38 (372419)
    12-27-2006 11:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    12-26-2006 11:29 PM


    Powerball miracle
    My winning the Powerball, might, and only might, be considered a miracle.
    I never buy lotto tickets so that is one thing to consider.
    To be a miracle though other routes to winning must be eliminated.
    I cannot find the winning ticket.
    There cannot be an equipment malfunction.
    There cannot be a case of mistaken identity.
    The winning must be certified as legitimate and universally so recognized.
    I cannot inherit, be gifted or in any other manner acquire the winning ticket.
    So, if with no possibility of my ever acquiring the winning ticket by any means, no possibility of malfunction or fraud, I win the Powerball and everyone agrees that even without a ticket I am the winner, it may well be a miracle.
    If the IRS then decides that given the miraculous status of my winning I do not owe taxes on the winnings, then I think all might also agree that it is a miracle.

    Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 10 of 38 (372420)
    12-27-2006 11:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 8 by anastasia
    12-27-2006 10:27 AM


    Re: Miracles
    anastasia writes:
    ... there are many instances of natural happenings of unlikely odds or unknown origin which have greatly changed the course of a religion.
    But the changes in the religion have more to do with the propaganda value of the event than with the event itself.
    Take a fairly well-known miracle, the resurrection of Jesus. There is little or no evidence that it happened or that Jesus even existed. The course of the religion was influenced by people's belief in the event. Faith being the evidence of things not seen, it doesn't seem important for the miracle to be seen at all.
    So another definition of "miracle" might be, "An event, real or imagined, in which people have faith."

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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by anastasia, posted 12-27-2006 10:27 AM anastasia has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by anastasia, posted 12-27-2006 11:41 AM ringo has replied
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    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 5953 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 11 of 38 (372424)
    12-27-2006 11:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
    12-27-2006 11:16 AM


    Re: Miracles
    Ringo writes:
    Take a fairly well-known miracle, the resurrection of Jesus. There is little or no evidence that it happened or that Jesus even existed. The course of the religion was influenced by people's belief in the event. Faith being the evidence of things not seen, it doesn't seem important for the miracle to be seen at all.
    Well, let's not talk about the resurrection at present, since it is so unprovable.
    But I am interested in why people have faith in some events and not others.
    For example, there are many reports of miraculous springs coming from heretofore dry rock. Many times the springs are seen as a sign of God.
    Recently there was an unusual 'spring' if sap gushing from a tree trunk, but I heard no one claim that it was a sign, and the odds are that the discoverer of the sap rush had some faith background.
    Also there are tales of levitations of priests which have cause faith in their holiness, but a magician only cuases faith in his skill when performing such feats.
    How would we account for human nature having faith in one thing and not another? This is just a simple question BTW and not intended as evidence of any kind.

    This message is a reply to:
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    ringo
    Member (Idle past 412 days)
    Posts: 20940
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005


    Message 12 of 38 (372434)
    12-27-2006 12:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by anastasia
    12-27-2006 11:41 AM


    Re: Miracles
    anastasia writes:
    How would we account for human nature having faith in one thing and not another?
    I don't think "human nature" is the right way of looking at it. I suspect that the people who believe in levitiating priests, etc. are a different subset from people who ask how a stage magician levitates.
    Myself, if I saw a priest levitiating, my first question would be, "How does he do that?" and my second question would be, "What's the scam?" The possibility of a "miracle" wouldn't enter my head.

    Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
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    This message is a reply to:
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    anastasia
    Member (Idle past 5953 days)
    Posts: 1857
    From: Bucks County, PA
    Joined: 11-05-2006


    Message 13 of 38 (372439)
    12-27-2006 1:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by ringo
    12-27-2006 12:03 PM


    Re: Miracles
    Ringo writes:
    Myself, if I saw a priest levitiating, my first question would be, "How does he do that?" and my second question would be, "What's the scam?" The possibility of a "miracle" wouldn't enter my head.
    And what if you found no evidence of scam or natural cause? Is it foolish to attribute the happening to something extraordinary, or only if we call the extraordinary for now 'God'?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This message is a reply to:
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    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 14 of 38 (372444)
    12-27-2006 1:34 PM


    The Age of Miracles
    "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign. But none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." -Matthew 12:38-39

    "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Inactive Member


    Message 15 of 38 (372446)
    12-27-2006 1:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 10 by ringo
    12-27-2006 11:16 AM


    Re: Miracles
    Take a fairly well-known miracle, the resurrection of Jesus. There is little or no evidence that it happened or that Jesus even existed. The course of the religion was influenced by people's belief in the event. Faith being the evidence of things not seen, it doesn't seem important for the miracle to be seen at all.
    "Because you have seen Me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." -John 20:29
    Miracles have a few purposes. They are for edification, and they are the product of deep faith. We are asked to believe that God can do all things. Often times we don't believe that, or if we claim to, sometimes its just lip service. But Jesus also said that we have not because we ask not.
    I would say that miracles are wonderful gifts on those He bestows upon. However, I could go the rest of my life without seeing one miracle and still have a deep relationship with the Father. At the same time, we shouldn't speak disparagingly about them either.

    "A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell." -C.S. Lewis

    This message is a reply to:
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