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Author Topic:   100 Categories of Evidence Against Noah’s Flood
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2170
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 1 of 11 (400305)
05-12-2007 1:16 AM


A modest proposal.

S1WC would like to be given the opportunity to attempt to refute the following categories of evidence against Noah's flood and, as the author of these categories, I would like to defend the content of the list.

Here it is:

List of 100 Categories of Evidence Against Noah’s Flood

Geoscience – I have some familiarity with this area of study. In fact, I would say that virtually every geologic formation, virtually every rock, is evidence against Noah’s flood. However, I am far from expert due to both time and content so I’m sure this list can be improved.

1. Angular unconformities – Angular unconformities are where sediments are laid down in layers, then tilted and eroded, then new sediments are deposited on top. How does a global flood simultaneously deposit, tilt, and erode in the same exact place?

2. Radiometric dating – All common forms of radiometric dating, including C14, K-Ar, Ar-Ar, Rb-Sr, Th-Pb, U-Pb, and fission track. The dates derived from these diverse methods, when properly interpreted rather than intentionally misapplied, show that all but the very most recent deposits in the geologic column is vastly older than any postulated flood.

3. Fossil Sorting – The sorting of fossils in the geologic record is consistent with evolution and geology across all formations worldwide. There are basically no fossils of dinosaurs found with modern mammals, even when such dinosaurs could fly. There are no flowering plants in the Cambrian, no grasses, no mammals, and no birds. The overall sorting does not show any evidence consistent with a flood or settling in water.

4. Varves – How does one create 20 million annual layers, each layer which would have taken at least a month to settle due to hydrodynamics as is observed in the Green River Formation? How does one explain seasonal of pollen grains found in the layers?

5. Sedimentation rates – Why would there be Precambrian rocks below ones feet in the Canadian Shield area, yet the entire geologic column in the Williston Basin in North Dakota? Why would a global flood scour down to the Precambrian in one place yet at the same time deposit tens of thousands of feet of sediment in another when it is exactly the same process? Giant post-pyramid ice ages are not an explanation as there is no written record or other evidence of increased historical glaciation to the extent needed to scour the Canadian Shield down in the last 4500 years, not to mention such Precambrian rocks elsewhere on Earth like South Africa.

6. Lava layers with ancient soils between flows – How could lava forms which only exist with a land surface interface create interbedded deposits with paleosoils?

7. Ice sheets – Ice caps can’t reform in the time allotted since any global flood of 4500 years ago.

8. Ice core data with correlated known volcanic events – Ice cores can be dated back by multiple methods nearly a million years, yet show no evidence of a global flood.

9. Ocean core data – Ocean cores would show unsorted piles of terrestrial life and different distributions in grain sizes than observed. They would also show little difference in thickness between the mid Atlantic ridge and near subduction zones, which is not what is observed.

10. Paleomagnetism – Because the Earth’s magnetic field has reversed polarity and has wandered over the globe in the past, certain igneous rocks show such preferred magnetic orientations when sufficiently cooled. By mapping these directions and reversals, which correlate with radioisotope dating and stratigraphy, it is easily shown that the vast majority of seafloor sediments, along with most volcanic rock, are way too old to have been deposited by any flood. In fact such measurements are one of the great evidences for plate tectonics, which alone invalidate a global flood.

11. Volcanism – According to ‘flood geology’ every igneous rock layer that overlays sedimentary rock would have to be less than 4500 years old. Yet, historical records indicate this tremendous amount of simultaneous volcanic activity could not have occurred in recent times because someone would have noticed, becoming extinct and all when the atmosphere becomes unbreathable. Such a position directly contradicts the existence of the Deccan Traps which are up to 2 km thick and 500,000 square km in extent, yet supposedly erupted in India despite any historic evidence, after such a flood.

12. Ore deposit formation rates – Most ore deposits require a longer period of time to separate their constituent elements and then cool to create an economically viable source of minerals.

13. Evaporites – The existence of evaporate deposits thousands of feet thick are incompatible with any global flood as they are formed through evaporation rather than through the addition of fresh water.

14. Carbonates – The huge amount of CO2 in the atmosphere prior to being locked into carbonate rock would have made the planet resemble Venus. There would have been no life to drown.

15. Microfossil deposits - Thick deposits of microfossils in limestone, diatomaceous chert, and chalk that could not settle to such a degree of thickness in the time allotted for any global flood.

16. Thick deposits of sand - Sand is the result of weathering and working of formally solid formations, requiring long long times to form and accumulate.

17. Aeolian sand deposits – Wind deposited sandstone is found above and below water deposited limestone. One example is the Cococino formation which is both overlain and overlies limestone.

18. Overthrust formations – the time and pressure required to cause overthrust formations is far greater than can occur in any post-flood historic time.

19. Formation of geologic features such as mountains and valleys – How did something like the Himalaya Mountains form without anyone noticing all those earthquakes? How were valleys cut between such mountains in less than 4500 years?

20. Heat of formation – I can’t explain this topic any better than has already been done.
From http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
quote:
________________________________________

• If the geologic record was deposited in a year, then the events it records must also have occurred within a year. Some of these events release significant amounts of heat.
• Magma. The geologic record includes roughly 8 x 10E24 grams of lava flows and igneous intrusions. Assuming (conservatively) a specific heat of 0.15, this magma would release 5.4 x 10E27 joules while cooling 1100 degrees C. In addition, the heat of crystallization as the magma solidifies would release a great deal more heat.
• Limestone formation. There are roughly 5 x 10E23 grams of limestone in the earth's sediments [Poldervaart, 1955], and the formation of calcite releases about 11,290 joules/gram [Weast, 1974, p. D63]. If only 10% of the limestone were formed during the Flood, the 5.6 x 10E26 joules of heat released would be enough to boil the flood waters.
• Meteorite impacts. Erosion and crustal movements have erased an unknown number of impact craters on earth, but Creationists Whitcomb and DeYoung suggest that cratering to the extent seen on the Moon and Mercury occurred on earth during the year of Noah's Flood. The heat from just one of the largest lunar impacts released an estimated 3 x 10E26 joules; the same sized object falling to earth would release even more energy. [Fezer, pp. 45-46]
• Other. Other possibly significant heat sources are radioactive decay (some Creationists claim that radioactive decay rates were much higher during the Flood to account for consistently old radiometric dates); biological decay (think of the heat released in compost piles); and compression of sediments.
5.6 x 1026 joules is enough to heat the oceans to boiling. 3.7 x 10E27 joules will vaporize them completely. Since steam and air have a lower heat capacity than water, the steam released will quickly raise the temperature of the atmosphere over 1000 C. At these temperatures, much of the atmosphere would boil off the Earth.
Aside from losing its atmosphere, Earth can only get rid of heat by radiating it to space, and it can't radiate significantly more heat than it gets from the sun unless it is a great deal hotter than it is now. (It is very nearly at thermal equilibrium now.) If there weren't many millions of years to radiate the heat from the above processes, the earth would still be unlivably hot.
________________________________________

21. River meanders – River meanders incised in rock can only be caused by gradual uplift, not through a year’s worth of soft sediment deposition.

22. Large and extensive river potholes – As this is one of Iceage’s, I will defer the explanation to him, although I wouldn’t mind his input on others he brought up as well.

23. Glacial weathering – glacial deposits and weathering such as U-shaped valleys require longer than 4500 years to form.

24. Independent dating correlations – See Correlations Correlations Correlations (Message 1 of Thread Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 in Forum Proposed New Topics) enjoy!

25. Batholith formation – Why isn’t the Sierra Nevada granitic batholith still hot as it would have taken several million years to cool?

26. Differential weathering – How could the Sierra Nevada and the Appalachians show such different weathering if each are the exact same age of only 4500 years old?

27. Banded iron formations and red beds – Banded iron formations can’t form in the presence of significant oxygen. Yet they were supposedly deposited in a flood which supposedly allowed animals to breathe both before and after.

28. Water in confined aquifers – The chemistry of water may be measured as to its constituents, as any municipal water authority already knows. Under flood conditions, the water chemistry in a confined aquifer would have changed as lower elevation aquifers would contain more salt than higher aquifers as the flood waters diluted the salt content in the recharge zone. Not only is this behavior not shown by any known confined aquifer, but the age of such water according to the laws of physics is vastly older than any flood may have deposited.

29. Worldwide iridium layer – Although any worldwide flood evidence is lacking, there is a worldwide iridium layer at the K-T boundary where it exists. How could this iridium layer have been deposited among all those swirling waters in a flood?

30. Deformed structures in metamorphosed sediments – There are areas in metamorphic rock where pebbles and even fossils have been stretched and deformed in processes that would have taken several times any 4500 years since a global flood.

31. Compression of all fossil life into too short a time period – If all species represented by fossils, coal, and petroleum from throughout the geologic record lived simultaneously, they would have been standing on each other, an ecological impossibility.

32. Differential mineralization of fossils – Remains of buried humans in historic times show minimal mineralization. This increases overall with extinct mammals, then extinct dinosaurs, then extinct trilobites and ammonites.

33. Surface features buried throughout geologic column – Examples include: rain drops, river channels, wind-blown dunes, beaches, glacial deposits, burrows, in-place trees, soils, desiccation cracks, footprints.

34. Pollen sorting – Why is pollen sorted according to evolutionary principles instead of hydrodynamic principles in the geologic record?

35. Inconsistent worldwide geologic formations – Any flood would have left a single layer of similar sediment worldwide, not the tremendous amount and variety of layers that exist in each of the thousands of boreholes and outcrops in geology.

36. Existence of soil after flood – Soil is a delicate mixture of organic and inorganic materials. How could any soil exist after an environment that was supposedly turbulent enough to destroy all the earth’s crust?

37. Tectonic spreading rates – Observed tectonic spreading rates indicate that there is no evidence of any disturbance due to any global flood 4500 years ago.

38. Tar pits – If all petroleum was caused by some global flood, how can there be tar pits filled with land fossils that have not become coal or oil?

39. Caverns – Caverns carved from dolomite such as exist in West Texas can’t form in as little as 4500 years.

40. Oklo and other natural reactors – Such natural reactors could not have been formed a mere 4500 years ago unless the laws of physics involving radioactive decay are violated.

41. Multiple glaciations – There are at least four major separate evidences of glaciations in the geologic record separated by eons. How could all four occur during a flood while supposedly underwater?

42. Meteoric impacts – For the evidence of meteoric impacts to be buried under sediments indicate that such impacts all occurred in the span of one year. Such a bombardment would allow for no life due to a lack of sun.

43. Hydrocarbon formation – The amount of hydrocarbon deposits in the ground from organic causes represent a greater biomass than is possible to have formed within 4500 years.

44. Conglomerates within conglomerates within conglomerates within conglomerates – Conglomerates are made up of diverse weathered rock that is eroded then recemented. In order to have a 4th level conglomerate there needs to be four episodes of weathering and recementation of rocks which are often impossible to form and erode in 4500 years such as when some within the conglomerate matrix are igneous or metamorphic rock.

45. Change in physical properties of rock correlated with age and fossil content – The older the sedimentary rock under current scientific models, in most cases the greater its compaction. How would near-simultaneous deposition explain this observation?

46. Delicate structures preserved in supposed turbulence – Delicate structures such as insect wings and feathers are preserved in rock. How could a turbulence that supposedly weathers miles of consolidated rock simultaneously preserve delicate structures?

47. Coprolites – Coprolites, which are fossilized turds, are preserved throughout the fossil record. How does a flood have animals constantly crapping in the midst of a flood after they are exterminated?

48. Meteoric dust accumulation – Both ice cores and evaporates indicate meteoric dust accumulates at a roughly steady rate over time. How can this dust remain constant under contracted meteoric bombardment?

49. Desert varnish – Desert varnish is created by microorganisms in arid conditions over a period of hundreds of years. How could such varnish be created throughout the geologic record in flood conditions?

50. Multiple layers of fossil forests – How can a single flood explain multiple fossil forest layers such as can be seen at Joggins, Nova Scotia or Yellowstone?

51. Detailed layering – How could a global flood create thousands of layers seen in several geologic formations, each of which requires a different depositional environment?

52. Lack of any geologic evidence for a global flood – While there are dozens of categories representing millions of data points of evidence against Noah’s Flood, I know of no single piece of geologic evidence in favor of Noah’s Flood.

Bioscience – I have little familiarity with this subject so I am sure that the number and quality of categories here could be improved and even increased by those with more expertise. Sorry about appropriating some dual categories under geoscience, perhaps a new dual meta-category would be appropriate.

53. Observed genetic diversity – The genetic diversity in all animals indicate that there was no genetic bottleneck.

54. Non-viable size of genetic population – A parent population of one or even seven pairs of animals is not genetically viable. Such inbreeding quickly causes fatal mutations.

55. Food requirements of animals – Some animals such as Koalas require very specific diets. How could these dietary requirements been provided, and who could keep up with such variable requirements on a ship?

56. Mobility considerations – How did sloths or other slow-moving animals get to any ark and how did they migrate from any ark without a trace in the time allotted?

57. Symbiotic relationships – Several species have a sole source of nutrition. How did these creatures exist during or after a global flood?

58. Parasites – Parasites require hosts in order to survive. Were all creatures on any ark hosts and how did they survive such parasitism?

59. Diseases – Diseases that exist today require hosts to survive. How did all the infected animals survive simultaneously being hosts to every disease currently around?

60. Social Insects – one pair of ants, bees or termites do not constitute a viable unit for survival.

61. Short-lived life forms – Mayflies only live a few days. How could they reproduce in a barge in a non-riparian environment?

62. Life forms older than flood – The oldest bristlecone pines are 5700 years old, they can’t survive underwater for any appreciable amount of time.

63. Vegetation – Neither most vegetation nor their seeds can survive under salt water. Nor can such vegetation root and thrive in salt encrusted ‘soil’ (which also largely didn’t exist immediately after any flood).

64. Food requirements subsequent to a flood - If a flood wiped out all but a pair of animals and plants, there would be insufficient food for any survivors.

65. Aquatic life - There are fresh water fish, salt water fish, and brackish fish, how could all survive in the same environment?

66. Tree ring data – Rings on currently living trees that indicate they are older than 4500 years do not indicate that they were drowned and died at the time of any proposed global flood.

67. Coral clocks – Annual coral growth is correlated to the number of days per year in the deep past. Such clocks indicate a slowing of Earth’s rotation consistent with physics and not a 4500 year maximum age of coral reefs.

68. Population growth subsequent to any flood – The population growth of humans necessary to produce pyramids, great walls, and great empires is insufficient to have a bottleneck of under a dozen individuals 4500 years ago. The population growth of prey species would be insufficient to support a 90-10 prey-predator ratio immediately after any devastating flood.

69. Coccolithophores – How could these creatures that bloom, oversaturate their environment and then die off have created so many and such thick deposits in the geologic record in so little time during a turbulent flood? (credit to Lithodid-Man)

70. Interdependent ecosystems – How were interdependent ecosystems where life requires a complex web of relationships preserved during and after a global flood?

71. Food pyramid – how could the predation relationship be preserved with only a pair of creatures at the bottom of the chain?

72. Difference between clean/unclean genome – Why do the seven pairs of clean animals not show any greater genetic diversity than the single pairs of unclean animals?

73. Aquatic fossils – Why are fossils from shallow marine environments far more common than all others if there was more land than water prior to any global flood?

74. Lack of any biologic evidence for a global flood – While there are dozens of categories representing millions of data points of evidence against Noah’s Flood, I know of no single piece of biologic evidence in favor of Noah’s Flood.

Engineering – Have some familiarity, but once again, it was a long time ago that it was a part of formal instruction.

75. Loading the ark – Animals and plants would have to enter the Ark in pairs within the space of a few seconds apart.

76. Amount of space – The amount of space provided by the Ark would not come near to enough to hold all species, genus, or even families observed today.

77. Construction – The construction of an object the supposed size of the ark using the tools available at the time is far greater than the size of the construction crew within the time allotted.

78. Materials – The Ark was supposedly constructed of ‘gopherwood’ which shows no evidence of having ever existed. Also, wood as a sole construction material would not be able to withstand the stresses on any ship and would likely capsize at the first opportunity.

79. Ventilation – Animals require air to survive. A single window would provide insufficient ventilation for the body heat and fresh air produced by wall-to-wall biomass.

80. Leakage – A wooden ship of this size would flex due to stress to such a degree that no tar type sealant would work to prevent leakage and eventual sinking within a few days.

81. Waste removal – The crew of the Ark would be insufficient to clear the ship of body waste. The stinking hulk would probably kill all life aboard before a few months had past.

82. Humidity – Many animals and plants, particularly those adapted to deserts, would quickly die in an environment of 100% humidity.

83. Food storage – How could Noah preserve food in 100% humidity among all those microorganisms, mold, and disease causing agents without modern refrigeration for nearly a year?

Addendum - Problems with ‘kinds’ – Many of the above objections are limited through the introduction of the undefined concept of ‘kinds.’ The ‘kinds’ argument fails however because to create the present diversity of life, biologic forms would have to undergo superhyperfragalisticmicromacro evolution, an absurd concept with no evidence and completely void of common sense such as demanding that housecats give birth to lions. It also supposedly is designed to show that evolution does not occur because of greater past evolution, a clear logical contradiction of unbelievable magnitude.
Archeology – Open to suggestions, no training here.

84. Ancient nature of most civilizations – Most civilizations have precursors that indicate a clear evolution of culture and technology through time without any bottleneck. The time allotted for such cultural development is most likely insufficient under any Noah Flood scenario.

85. Oetzi – Oetzi provides an example of a ‘pre-flood’ mummified individual dated and correlated by multiple methods. Where is the water damage?

86. No human activity in deeper layers – There are no indications of human activity, or even humans, in any geologic layers prior to the Pleistocene.

Linguistics - Open to suggestions, no training here.

87. Language variation – Because languages diverge by a set amount over time, and these have been reasoned to have diverged considerably prior to Noah’s Flood, linguistics represents another element of evidence against Noah’s Flood.

History – Please suggest and supplement my haphazard studies.

88. Egyptian history – Why did the Egyptians not mention a flood during their monument building period?

89. Sargon and the Akkadian Empire – How could Sargon conquer Sumeria and create the Akkadian Empire either underwater or immediately after a global flood with no troops?

90. Mohenjo Daro – Why does this ‘pre-flood’ city show no evidence of a global flood?

91. Chinese civilization – Why were the Chinese building canals during a flood?

92. Differential technology level between cultures – If all cultures started at the same level of technological skill 4500 years ago how could most cultures have advanced or deteriorated so quickly relative to each other?

93. Independent primary food sources between cultures – As cited in the book Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond different cultures depended upon different food sources. For example the Aztecs had corn, the Incas had potatoes, the Egyptians had wheat, and the Chinese had rice. If these cultures and their foodstuffs were all in contact 4500 years ago, why did they not show a greater diversity in food sources such as we have today?

94. Inconsistency of flood myths – The prevalence of flood myths among diverse cultures is often cited as evidence for Noah’s Flood. However, the vast difference in the details of nearly each culture’s flood myth actually provides evidence against a single global event.

Biblical Scripture – I’m sure many could add here as they are much better versed in the Bible. (False gods in lowercase)

95. Use of parables in the Bible – If Jesus explicitly taught in parables why do some believe that can’t ever be applied to the OT as well? Are they better informed about god’s intentions than Jesus?

96. Why use a flood? – Instead of wiping out all animals and children along with ‘his’ creation, why didn’t god just punish the unrighteous?

97. Why punish those who use their god-created minds - Why would a just god reward those who hate science and show it by attacking it via the literal interpretation of Noah’s story and punish those who use science to save lives?

Miscellaneous Categories

98. No plausible mechanism to explain where water came from – Overhead ‘vapor canopies’ and underground ‘fountains’ violate the most basic principles of physics. There is no explanation of where the water came from.

99. No plausible mechanism to explain where water went – No remotely valid or rational explanation has been propounded to explain where such flood waters retreated to.

100. Dubious motives of many who seek to conflate religion and science – Many of the well-known originators and staunch defenders of the war against science are proven liars and even convicted criminals, usually for using religion to line their pockets. Why should any thinking and/or moral person accept their rants as gospel?

Edited by Admin, : Remove restriction from thread title.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Someone who cares, posted 05-14-2007 12:30 AM anglagard has responded
 Message 5 by Someone who cares, posted 06-13-2007 4:18 PM anglagard has not yet responded
 Message 9 by LucyTheApe, posted 04-11-2008 9:53 AM anglagard has not yet responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3308 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 2 of 11 (400451)
05-14-2007 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by anglagard
05-12-2007 1:16 AM


Here goes...
I see this topic has been made already, so might as well start while you get the information on my sources for our other debate.

quote:
In fact, I would say that virtually every geologic formation, virtually every rock, is evidence against Noah’s flood.

Whoa! I would be careful in making such large claims if I were you! In fact, you just might have to take it back by the time we're done with this debate! :) (Note: I'll always be ready to accept it if you do intend on taking your words back, and I won't criticize you. My goal is to show you the truth, and I do not want to intimidate you, so if you feel like saying something at any time during this debate, don't be afraid to do so.)

quote:
However, I am far from expert due to both time and content so I’m sure this list can be improved.

Yes! I'm sure we could improve it, know how? We'll just pick off point by point until the list is empty! That would be closer to the truth than what it currently is...

So let me start:

Point 1: Simple, first the "fountains of the deep", presumably volcanoes(yes, magma has lots of water), break open. This explosion bursts through the rock and tilts it up. Then the great force of the first flood waters rips through the area shawing off this tilted rock, and there you have it- the great "angular unconformity"! Source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/cfol/ch3-grand-canyon.asp

Point 2: Radiometric dating is very unreliable because it is based on many unproved and unprovable assumptions such as: the radioactive conditions were always the same, the "half life" of elements is constant, products of decay were not originally in the rock that is being dated, etc. C-14 dating is unreliable also because the level of C-14 in the atmosphere is not constant, and it is unfit for dating anything beyond 3,000 years old. Source: The Rise of the Evolution Fraud by Malcolm Bowden.

Point 3: First off, natural settling action can very well account for the fossil distribution. (Refer to my essay located here- http://www.freewebs.com/noevolutionguy/ )

Second, there are many cases where the fossils are not found where evolution says they should be. A handful of specific examples should suit:

1)18" long human footprints with normal sized footprints and DINOSAUR footprints found in Cretaceous mud in the bed of the Paluxy River, Texas. Source: The Rise of the Evolution Fraud by Malcolm Bowden

2) A complete amphibian, hynerpeton bassetti was found in Upper Devonian rocks said to be 35-363 million years in Catskill Formation in Pennsylvania. This amphibian is "older" than Ichthyostega, Acauthostega, and Tulerpeton! Older than those thought to be the oldest amphibians- yet fully formed limbs and other parts! Source: E.B. Daeschler, Science 265:639-642 (1994) in Evolution: The Fossils STILL Say No! by Duane T. Gish, pg.91-92.

3)Louis Leakey found remains of a circular stone habitation hut at the bottom of Bed I. (Source: Kelso, Physical Anthropology, pg. 221; M.D. Leakey, Olduvai Gorge, Vol.3, pg.24) But the only ones capable of making such huts are homo sapiens, thus, this find below Australopithecus, Homo habilis, and Homo erectus invalidates them! Source:E.B. Daeschler, Science 265:639-642 (1994) in Evolution: The Fossils STILL Say No! by Duane T. Gish, pg.271.

4)Modern human fossils in layers where they aren't supposed to be in yet according to evolution, such as: 1)completely fossilized Calaveras skull in Pliocene (Source: Ape-men- Fact or Fallacy? by Malcolm Bowden pg.76-77) 2)Castenedolo skull in Pliocene (Source: Same but pg.78-79) 3)Olmo skull found with Pleistocene fossils (Source: Same but pg.80) 4)Foxhall jaw in Pliocene, stone tools found below it (Source: Same pg.80) 5)Galley Hill skeleton of a man in Middle Pliestocene (Source: Same but pg.80-83) 6) Clichy Skeleton in Middle Pliestocene (Source: Same but pg.86) 7)Abbeville jaw in early Pliestocene (Source: Same but pg.86-87) 8)Natchez pelvis in lower Pleistocene (Source: Same but pg.87)

And the list could go on and on...

As for the lack of flowers and grasses in Cambrian, I do believe those items do not fossilize quite well...

Point 4: Varves can form more than one pair in a year depending upon the conditions. There are several examples of where multiple layers were laid in a year here: http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v19/i3/greenriver.asp So it is possible if there were the right conditions to lay all those layers.
As for the pollen, I don't think it would be difficult for the flood waters to capture various pollens and deposit them with the layers of sediments as it goes...

Point 5: Whoa! We (as Creationists who believe in the Flood) don't see a difference in the various layers like evolutionists do. We do not ascribe the various layers different ages, because we believe they were mostly laid down in Flood. The only reason we would use terms like "Precambrian" is to refute evolutionist claims using thier "reasoning". Thus this point is invalid as it attacks a strawman, we Creationists who believe in the Flood do not recognize the various "layers" as evolutionists do.

Have to go, but I hope you see how I have been able to incorporate more facts from my newly gained knowledge from books I read recently. I will probably be ready for a new essay in a year.

Peace.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by anglagard, posted 05-12-2007 1:16 AM anglagard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by anglagard, posted 05-27-2007 5:45 AM Someone who cares has responded

anglagard
Member
Posts: 2170
From: Big Spring, TX, USA
Joined: 03-18-2006
Member Rating: 6.1


Message 3 of 11 (402459)
05-27-2007 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Someone who cares
05-14-2007 12:30 AM


Re: Here goes...
Rest assured, I have not forgotten about this GD, however your insistence concerning having to debate entire websites such as AIG requires much personal effort.

As a current representative of the entire field of geoscience against your assaults upon scientific knowledge, I am placed in a position whereas my responses must be well considered, thoroughly researched, and accessible to a general readership.

See you soon :)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Someone who cares, posted 05-14-2007 12:30 AM Someone who cares has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Someone who cares, posted 06-13-2007 3:31 PM anglagard has responded

  
Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3308 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 4 of 11 (405547)
06-13-2007 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by anglagard
05-27-2007 5:45 AM


Re: Here goes...
I have not forgotten this either, hope to get more to it soon.

quote:
however your insistence concerning having to debate entire websites such as AIG requires much personal effort.

Whoa! Who said all of AIG? Just the facts I quote/paraphrase/summarize...

But anyway, how are we going to do this? Am I going to go through all of the points and then you respond, or are we going to do it as it comes along, I reply to one point and you reply to that?


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by anglagard, posted 05-27-2007 5:45 AM anglagard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by anglagard, posted 06-13-2007 9:40 PM Someone who cares has responded

Someone who cares
Member (Idle past 3308 days)
Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 5 of 11 (405552)
06-13-2007 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by anglagard
05-12-2007 1:16 AM


Moving right along...
Point 6: I don't exactly understand what you're saying, but let me try. Are you asking how there can be layers of sediments between lava flows? If that's what it is, simple: The Flood would cause many volcanoes to burst, and it would also move sediments as it goes. A lava flow occurs, then the Flood could lay sediments on top of that, and this cycle could be repeated on and on.

Point 7: Some Creationists believe that after the Flood there was an ice age or ages, and this would allow for the ice caps to reform.

Point 8: To answer this I would need more information on the methods used and what exactly they are looking for to find evidence of the Flood, perhaps you could elaborate. But in the meantime, I can answer a question with a question, how come the rock strata provide evidence of the Flood catastrophe like trees and whales going through multiple layers and animals found in the state of fear, but not provide evidence of gradual evolution, i.e. no transitional fossils which specifically link two groups of animals with a transitional animal.

Point 9: The Flood could very well sort the fossils according to weight, strength, density, ability to swim, ability to run to higher ground, etc. as my essay demonstrates. Same goes for the grain sizes, the Flood could very well sort them out according to their characteristics like shape, size, weight, and density, etc. As for the thicknesses of the layers, the Flood would easily be able to make different thicknesses, it made the valleys and mountains! In one place it could be calmer and settle sediments in an area, in another it could be breaking up the rocks and forming holes.

Point 10: Paleomagnetism is, to the contrary of what you said, proof for the Flood! What could have caused the poles to wander and reverse directions other that a worldwide catastrophe! Only the Flood could have the power to do this.

You say it is correlated with radioisotope dating, well, radioisotope dating is flawed! I am thinking about writing an essay and this subject would be discussed there in detail, but for now just a few points from John Woodmorappe's 'The Mythology of Modern Dating Methods, 1999, Institute for Creation Research:

*The fission decay constant of 238U is still not known precisely (pg.17).

*The huge ages of K-Ar can be easily explained by the Flood, because when the Flood happened, it trapped a lot of magma, and this trapped the great amounts of argon, so the rocks would appear older than they are! (pg.18).

*"The U-Pb and Rb-Sr systems are known to be highly susceptible to resetting by hydrothermal, diagenetic and metamorphic processes."(Toulkeridis, T., 1998. 'Sm-Nd, Rb-Sr, and Pb-Pb dating of silicic carbonates from the early Archaean Barberton Greenstone Belt, South Africa.' Precambrian Research 92:138)

*"Natural zircon typically displays an inconsistency of age values obtained on the basis of the 206Pb/238U, 207Pb/235U, and 207Pb/206Pb isotopic ratios." (Levchenkov, O. A., 1998. 'Kinetics of Pb and U loss from metamict zircon under different P-T-X conditions.' Geochemistry International 36(11):1006)

*"Unfortunately, the U-Pb and Th-Pb systems rarely stay closed in silicate rocks." (Dickin, A.P. 1997. Radiogenic Isotope Geology(updated paper-back edition). U.K., New York: Cambridge University Press. Pg.105)

*Xenocrysts can have a very high content of argon and this can skew the K-Ar dates. (pg.49)

*The list could go on and on...

Concerning plate tectonics, "Nearly all these cracks are in the ocean. Obviously, seawater ought to be pouring down through these cracks, producing boiling water and massive volcanic action! If a plate bent down on one end, the other end would rise miles into the air, and the resultant rush of water downward would produce waves which would inundate entire continents." http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/Encyclopedia/19plat01.htm#Plate%20Tectonics

Point 11: What does someone's noticing of it have to do with it, they would be dying at the same time, all but Noah and his family.

Point 12: What methods where used to calculate this rate? And is it possible that the Flood plus a possible ice age or ages could affect this rate?


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by anglagard, posted 05-12-2007 1:16 AM anglagard has not yet responded

anglagard
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Posts: 2170
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Joined: 03-18-2006
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Message 6 of 11 (405598)
06-13-2007 9:40 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Someone who cares
06-13-2007 3:31 PM


Re: Here goes...
Just keep moving along as you have the time and motivation and I will respond as I have the time and motivation.

Actually, I have written (or copied with attribution) a dozen or so pages in response to your earlier post in Word, but I do not feel it is ready yet.

Like you, I am sometimes caught up in other matters but will respond in a hopefully appropriate manner as I become inspired.

One thing though, I must give up on predicting when I will respond as it just doesn't seem to work out.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Someone who cares, posted 06-13-2007 3:31 PM Someone who cares has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Someone who cares, posted 06-19-2007 11:48 PM anglagard has not yet responded

  
Someone who cares
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Posts: 192
Joined: 06-06-2006


Message 7 of 11 (406433)
06-19-2007 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by anglagard
06-13-2007 9:40 PM


Re: Here goes...
Yes, I would like to do other things more exciting to me than this, but I will try to visit every once in a while... I've taken up another great debate with RAZD about his Age Old Correlations(-it's a part of his debate with Murky Water labeled something like -...of the Great Debate") so my posting may seem rare here.

Peace.


"If you’re living like there is no God you’d better be right!" - Unknown
This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by anglagard, posted 06-13-2007 9:40 PM anglagard has not yet responded

waqasf 
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Message 8 of 11 (462927)
04-10-2008 12:34 PM


Spam deleted.

Edited by AdminModulous, : No reason given.


LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 11 (463001)
04-11-2008 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by anglagard
05-12-2007 1:16 AM


I'll go straight to number 94.

94. Inconsistency of flood myths – The prevalence of flood myths among diverse cultures is often cited as evidence for Noah’s Flood. However, the vast difference in the details of nearly each culture’s flood myth actually provides evidence against a single global event.

These are human records, in fact the oldest text that still exists is based on the flood. But you're willing to dump these "myths" in favour of your science. Science that prefers to extrapolate on its own imperial dogma.

Newton says "Pigmaei gigantium humeris impositi plusquam ipsi gigantes vident"

History is invaluable. Every imperialist regime will try to rewrite it, but the truth lingers on..

To pass off ancient accounts of history as fantasy not only trivialises them, it trivialises us..and YOU.

Edited by LucyTheApe, : "


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by anglagard, posted 05-12-2007 1:16 AM anglagard has not yet responded

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Message 10 of 11 (463005)
04-11-2008 10:20 AM


This thread has been dormant for a while, I'll move it to the Geology and the Great Flood forum.


--Percy
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Message 11 of 11 (463007)
04-11-2008 10:22 AM


Thread copied to the 100 Categories of Evidence Against Noah’s Flood thread in the Geology and the Great Flood forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.
  
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