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Author Topic:   The Cosmological Kalam Argument
JustinC
Member (Idle past 4873 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 1 of 12 (61666)
10-19-2003 8:13 PM


I'm about to discuss this with someone in another forum and wanted to get some thoughts on it.
As to the original post, I think it is entirely false that God has failed to reveal himself. Putting aside the rampant disease of Christ-mythism running amuck in this thread, I would like to discuss the bare existence of a personal God, as revealed by the Cosmological Argument. Here are the premises:
1. Everything which begins to exist requires a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe requires a cause for it's existence.
From [3] it will be argued that the only rational cause that could be employed to create this universe is a timeless, powerful, personal being (AKA, God).
With regards to premise [1], it is obvious that something cannot come from nothing for no reason. All experience, intuition, and logic confirm the causal principle. So [1] is true.
Premise [2] may seem hard to prove, but this is not so. In actual fact, there are numerous scientific evidences that the universe has not existed for an infinite number of years. For example, thermodynamic principles entail that the universe would experience "heat death" after trillions of years. Yet, if the universe has existed for ever, then this "trillions of years" would have passed by already, and our universe would be void of life. In addition, all models of the universe which purport to allow it to be eternally existing are filled with problems. The oscillating universe (the only one seriously defended today) has failed to produce a mechanism, has failed to provide evidence, and has clashed with scientfic finds (such as thermodynamics, the rate of the expansion of the universe, and the amount of mass in the universe).
On top of all this, many philosophers have made good arguments that it is impossible for an actual infinity to exist in the real world, even in theory. The concept of infinity is contradictory when applied to the real world, which suggests that infinity is only a concept useful in mathematics. Consider the Tristam Paradox: A man named Tristam Shandy writes his own autobiography so slowly that it takes him a full year to describe one day of his life. If Tristam lives for an infinite amount of years, then according to mathematics he would have completed his journal. But how is that possible if he gets further and futher behind every day? The answer- it's not possible, and the problem is that we are trying to take a purely mathematical concept (infinity) and apply it to the real world.
So, we have good scientific and philosophical reasons to regard [2] as true, thus [2] is justified.
Now, we inescapably arrive at [3]- the universe requires a cause for it's existence. But what is that cause? Well, there are several things that must be true of the cause:
1. The cause must be eternal and timeless. If it were not eternal and timeless, it would require a cause for it's own existence. But the FIRST cause must not require a cause. Therefore, the FIRST cause was necessarily eternal and timeless.
2. The cause must be above and beyond the laws of the universe. Why? Because the universe CONTAINS its own laws. Therefore the cause that created the universe must not be subject to those same laws (unless you wish to postulate that the universe created itself- which is an absurdity!)
3. The cause must be a personal being capable of making decisions. This is the most important point, because once we have a personal being outside the physical universe, we basically have God. So, how do I know it is personal? Because naturalistic, eternally existing causes without the ability to make decisions have no ability whatsoever to create something unique. This is because the naturalistic cause would have created the universe an infinity ago. In the absence of anything, there is nothing that can "prompt" this theoretical natural cause into creating something. Rather the free choice of a free, personal being is required. And this is what we mean when we say "God".
So, quite wonderfully, the magnificent Creator has left evidence of Himself in the most basic fact of life- existence itself! For the mere fact of existence is absurd without God!
Sincerely,
Kyle
First off, does it mean anything to say the universe is 14 billion years old? When someone says universe, I assume they are referring to space-time and all the energy 'within'. I can understand objects being 14 billions years old, but not time. It’s nonsensical to say the time is x years old, right?
Second, does it make any sense to speak of non-temporal causes or entities? For instance, he speaks of a being that is able to make decisions. This seems like he's referring to a temporal event, i.e. making a decision. But he says before that the being is timeless. So when did it make the decision? And if this being exists in some 'absolute time' apart from our universes time, then how can impersonal agent be ruled out? He says that an impersonal agent would cause the universe an infinite ago; but if this impersonal agent exists in some 'absolute time' which the personal agent exists in, why can it not spew off universes randomly the same way the personal agent does?
And third, is it self-refuting? The mind of the creator would have to decide to create the universe before he created the universe. What caused the creator to decide to create the universe? Either it had a cause, had no cause and a beginning, or had no cause and is eternal. If it was caused, wouldn't it follow that there is an infinite series of causal events in the mind of the creator? And since an infinite cannot exist according the argument, then this being doesn't exist. If there isn’t an infinite series of causes, then what I write below would hold true.
If it had a beginning it had to have a cause according to the argument, so the second choice is ruled out. If it has no cause and is eternal, then this isn’t a personal agent. It must decide to create the universe, since the cause to decide is always present.
So assuming that the first argument is sound (that the universe had a cause), I see no way to even make sense of the claim and also see no way to infer a personal agent. Hence, the best answer to what this cause would be is, we have no clue.
JustinC
[This message has been edited by JustinCy, 10-19-2003]

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by crashfrog, posted 10-19-2003 9:41 PM JustinC has not replied
 Message 3 by sidelined, posted 10-19-2003 9:46 PM JustinC has not replied
 Message 4 by Rrhain, posted 10-20-2003 2:06 AM JustinC has not replied
 Message 9 by PaulK, posted 10-20-2003 3:57 AM JustinC has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1497 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 2 of 12 (61676)
10-19-2003 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JustinC
10-19-2003 8:13 PM


Everything which begins to exist requires a cause.
I don't see that this is a foregone conclusion. How do we know things can't cause themselves, or be uncaused?
How does this prove the existence of the Christian God, and not Allah or Vishnu?
Why? Because the universe CONTAINS its own laws. Therefore the cause that created the universe must not be subject to those same laws
This is where it falls apart. Laws in the universe cannot be expected to hold outside the universe. That includes the "law" that "everything must have a cause". There's no reason to believe that causality must extend beyond the universe.

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 3 of 12 (61678)
10-19-2003 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JustinC
10-19-2003 8:13 PM


The cause must be above and beyond the laws of the universe.
This is a common thread in these types of arguements.The flaw being that a cause that is above and beyond is by definition incapable of interaction.This is also a convenient way to avoid any possibilty of refutation,however,this also means that any figment of the imagination would suffice to be an explanation.
From [3] it will be argued that the only rational cause that could be employed to create this universe is a timeless, powerful, personal being (AKA, God).
You might argue that it could just as well be a mindless,pointless process.It is just as,if not more,rational.
1. The cause must be eternal and timeless
Read this sentence and you should be able to ascertain the temporal contradiction.

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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 4 of 12 (61710)
10-20-2003 2:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by JustinC
10-19-2003 8:13 PM


JustinCy writes:
quote:
1. Everything which begins to exist requires a cause.
Even if true, that does not mean that the cause is outside of the thing being caused.
That is, some things cause themselves.
quote:
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe requires a cause for it's existence.
This does not mean that the cause is god. Study of QM shows that many things happen all on their own.
But there's a later problem:
quote:
On top of all this, many philosophers have made good arguments that it is impossible for an actual infinity to exist in the real world, even in theory.
Thus, even if we claim that god created the universe, this means that god is not infinite, either, and must have been created. So if god created us, what created god? Similarly, what created that? And what created that? You get an infinite regression of creation which cannot exist.
Therefore, if god can spontaneous create itself, why can't the universe?
quote:
The cause must be eternal and timeless.
No, this does not follow. Just because something is caused does not mean it must be eternal. It may be a one-shot thing. Besides, we just declared that infinite things cannot exist, so there can be no "eternal" anything.
quote:
The cause must be above and beyond the laws of the universe. Why? Because the universe CONTAINS its own laws.
So? What does this have to do with anything? Why can't something create itself? We see it all the time in QM.
quote:
The cause must be a personal being capable of making decisions.
Why? By "making decisions," this is just a euphemism for "intelligence." A coin is capable of "making decisions," but it is not intelligent.
quote:
Because naturalistic, eternally existing causes without the ability to make decisions have no ability whatsoever to create something unique.
This is simply not true.
Take the number of decks of cards being used in Las Vegas right now and deal them out. Do you really think you would ever duplicate that specific sequence? It is, for all intents and purposes, unique.
And yet, shuffling and dealing cards is naturalistic.
The entire argument rests upon assumptions that are either unjustified or flat out contradicted.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 5 of 12 (61717)
10-20-2003 2:43 AM


Just to be a jerk and so that Justin Cy cannot miss the point when he mentioned that a cause must be eternal and timeless.Eternal is event pertaining to time and timeless is not.A=A B=B A does not =B

  
JustinC
Member (Idle past 4873 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 6 of 12 (61718)
10-20-2003 2:50 AM


Are you talking about eternal meaning 'existing forever (in time)' and timeless meaning 'not within time'. Because I thought I saw that contradiction, but I looked up eternal and found:
1. Being without beginning or end; existing outside of time.
So I'm not sure I can necessarily take him up on that point until he clears up what he means.

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5938 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 7 of 12 (61720)
10-20-2003 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by JustinC
10-20-2003 2:50 AM


Again my lack of education shines through.
2 entries found for eternal.
To select an entry, click on it.
eternal[1,adjective]eternal[2,noun]
Main Entry: 1eternal
Pronunciation: i-'t&r-n&l
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Late Latin aeternalis, from Latin aeternus eternal, from aevum age, eternity -- more at AYE
Date: 14th century
1 a : having infinite duration : EVERLASTING b : of or relating to eternity c : characterized by abiding fellowship with God
2 a : continued without intermission : PERPETUAL b : seemingly endless
3 archaic : INFERNAL
4 : valid or existing at all times : TIMELESS
- eternalize /-n&l-"Iz/ transitive verb
- eternally /-n&l-E/ adverb
- eternalness noun
I once more have ventured into the pit of misinterpretation on my part. I apoogize however in my defense I have always taken timeless to mean without time and in the same vain as endless.
We still can proceed with the other two points.

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JustinC
Member (Idle past 4873 days)
Posts: 624
From: Pittsburgh, PA, USA
Joined: 07-21-2003


Message 8 of 12 (61722)
10-20-2003 3:22 AM


Rrhain, you talk about Quantom Mechanics making one of the premises false. Taken from the persons website: http://www.skepticalchristian.com/cosmological_argument.html
It is untrue that the quantum vacuum is "nothing". The so-called "vacuum" is a "sea of continually forming and dissolving particles, which borrow energy from the vacuum for their brief existence." 12 This has been confirmed by many scientists, including proponents of the quantum fluctuation paradigm. Davies, a proponent of this theory, admits: "The processes described here do not represent the creation of matter out of nothing, but the conversion of pre-existing energy into material form." 13 As Kanitscheider points out, "From the philosophical point of view it is essential to note that the foregoing is far from being a spontaneous generation of everything from naught, but the origin of that embryonic bubble is really a causal process leading from a primordial substratum with a rich physical structure to a materialized substratum of the vacuum." 14 Therefore, the term "vacuum" in this case is misleading, because in actuality the vacuum is more than nothing. This throws a wrench into the whole quantum fluctuation scheme. If anything at all can be said to have existed prior to the creation of the universe, then that which existed would have existed forever and it would have caused the creation of our universe an infinity ago. Redefining "nothing" to mean "something" is no more than semantic gymnastics and obfuscation.15 Therefore, the quantum "vacuum" which atheists use as a parallel for the their atheistic cosmology is in fact not a successful example of something coming from nothing.
Any validity to this? (I know very little about QM)
JustinC

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17828
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 9 of 12 (61723)
10-20-2003 3:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by JustinC
10-19-2003 8:13 PM


I'd like to comment on the third part of Kyle's argument.
quote:
3. The cause must be a personal being capable of making decisions. This is the most important point, because once we have a personal being outside the physical universe, we basically have God
Well you have some sort of "God" but I agree that without this point the argument fails.
quote:
So, how do I know it is personal? Because naturalistic, eternally existing causes without the ability to make decisions have no ability whatsoever to create something unique.
Aside with the prolems with "eternallly existing" this makes some very questionable assumptions. Firstly that the Universe is unique and secondly that a naturalistic cause cannot act only once.
quote:
This is because the naturalistic cause would have created the universe an infinity ago. In the absenceof anything, there is nothing that can "prompt" this theoretical natural cause into creating something. Rather the free choice of a free, personal being is required. And this is what we mean when we say "God".
This is simply rubbish. Firstly it contradicts the sub-argument that an infinite past is impossible. Unless an infinite past is a real possibility this must be ruled out. Moreover if the first cause is necessarily timeless it follows that there is no alternative "time" to create anything. A timeless cause must of necessity act and continue to act for eternity. Which leads to a refutation of the "uniqueness" argument - if a timeless God is capable of generating one and only one universe then a timeless natural cause must also be capable of doing so.
I will add my own thoughts on this matter. For this part of the argument to work it requires temporal (not timeless) causes acting in an infinite past (which the kalam argument denies). Then it has the problem that it denies that natural causes can act randomly while insisting that free will acts are random. All of these are contentious assumptions to say the least, and most are likely to be unacceptable to those proposing the argument.

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baileyr25
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 12 (61728)
10-20-2003 4:31 AM


Rrhain.. I would also like to be enlightened of objects causing themselves in QM. I have studied some QM, though the tiny amount I was exposed to in my undergrad adv. inorganic course in no way makes me an expert, I have never heard about these self-causing objects. Where can I learn more?

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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 11 of 12 (61826)
10-20-2003 8:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by JustinC
10-20-2003 3:22 AM


JustinCy:
It's hard to know where to start because the quote you made is such a mish-mash of accurate statements immediately followed by fallacious claims that the entire thing really ought to be discarded and started from scratch.
The quote is referring to quantum vacuum flux and the Casimir Effect.
Nobody in QM is saying that the universe is the result of the Casimir Effect. That is, the Big Bang does seem to have happened as the result of a quantum fluctuation but not a quantum vacuum fluctuation. Vacuum is empty space but the Big Bang did not happen in space as space didn't exist yet but was created in the Big Bang.
The point, however, is that the vacuum fluctuates all on its own. The virtual particles that are constantly being created and destroyed in the vacuum are doing so all on their own. The vacuum fluctuates without anybody or anything "causing" it to happen.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by JustinC, posted 10-20-2003 3:22 AM JustinC has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 12 of 12 (61829)
10-20-2003 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by baileyr25
10-20-2003 4:31 AM


baileyr25 responds to me:
quote:
I would also like to be enlightened of objects causing themselves in QM. I have studied some QM, though the tiny amount I was exposed to in my undergrad adv. inorganic course in no way makes me an expert, I have never heard about these self-causing objects. Where can I learn more?
The best place to learn is at your local college or university. At the very least, you can ask the professors for some guidance on what books would be appropriate and if you can't even do that, go to the library and ask the librarians for assistance. That's why they're there.
Quantum vacuum flux is a good example. The vacuum fluctuates. Constantly, pairs of virtual particles are constantly being created and immediately destroyed. One way to measure this is to take two plates and place them very close together. This causes only certain wavelengths of particles to be capable of existing between the plates. Since the space outside the area between the plates does not have this restriction, this creates a pressure upon the plates and pushes them together.
But where do these particles come from? Nothing is causing them to happen. It isn't like you've taken gold atoms, accelerated them to near the speed of light, and smacked them into each other and the resulting energy rains out particles. It is the very nature of the vacuum, itself. It happens because there's nothing stopping it from happening. Existence is not solid but fuzzy. Your corporeal body stays the way it is because there is a high probability of it remaining that way. But, there is a non-zero chance that you will appear one foot to the left. Not because anybody made it happen but simply because there's nothing to stop it.
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

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