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Author | Topic: Religion in Government | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
JCPalmer Inactive Member |
Religion is the most dangerous energy source known to humankind. The moment a person (or government or religion or organization) is convinced that God is either ordering or sanctioning a cause or project, anything goes. The history, worldwide, of religion-fueled hate, killing, and oppression is staggering. Eugene Peterson
At the age of 40 George W. Bush a once lost christian had an epiphany, he found God. Switching from being an alleged Christian to his wifes Methodism. Post 9/11 Bush took action, he found a 'mission.' A mission to 'rid the world of evil'Now, America is the new 'Rome.' It is not uncommon to hear of the 'American Empire' or of 'Bush's Regime' Bush has become a 'Crusader' and often during many speeches asks 'God to bless our troops' and 'God to bless America.' Although I do not believe in God, I can understand what role he plays in society among believers. However, when a nation is involved in Governmental actions, should God be apart of it? Should we as a Society, involve God in the political actions carried out? Bush has made numerous references to his belief that he could not be president if he did not believe in a 'divine plan that supersedes all human plans.' Also statings post 9/11 that he was 'chosen by the grace of God to lead at that moment.' Is this right? Should we allow a man of his stature or of any status among the Governmental/Political process to base his action on religious beliefs? Perhaps he is starting wars because he believes God is guiding him. His actions may also be fogged in a time when we need his mind to be pristine and sincere. I have been using Bush as an example because he is an easy target, my post is mainly asking the question 'Should religion be allowed/tolerated in the Governmental and Political process?'
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Also statings post 9/11 that he was 'chosen by the grace of God to lead at that moment.' Well, he sure as hell wasn't chosen by the people of the USA.
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JCPalmer Inactive Member |
It is possible that it was the Supreme Court, but very unlikely. The facts are that George W. Bush 'won' the election, and during a time of war his approval ratings topped off at around 74%. Which is impressive considering the fact he was sending thousands of our soldiers to fight a war that may not have been our war to fight. However, this topic is not discussing George W. Bush's presidential motives/actions. It is questioning whether or not religion should be allowed in the Governmental/Political society?
This message has been edited by JCPalmer, 05-28-2004 09:58 PM
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
There is a big difference between having Religious People in Government and having Religion in Government.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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Rand Al'Thor Inactive Member |
What I hate is people that will vote for bush no matter how bad a job he does. All they care about is having a "strong" christian in the government.
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custard Inactive Member |
Well, he sure as hell wasn't chosen by the people of the USA. Yeah, all those sneaky Canadians must have voted him in. Interesting question JC. Religion is so dominant shaping rules about morality and social norms upon which so many of our laws are based, that it seems almost impossible to extricate one from the other. Part of being in a democracy is that you have to suffer the will of the majority. If the will of the majority creates laws based on religious beliefs - abortion restriction, controlled substances, tax exemptions for religious institutions, then I don't see how one can avoid the influence of religion. As a side note, it isn't like governments that were professed athiests were any more liberal, e.g. Soviet Russia, China.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
custard writes: Part of being in a democracy is that you have to suffer the will of the majority. Which is why it is fortunate that the US is not and hopefully will never be, a Democracy. Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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JCPalmer Inactive Member |
jar writes:
Perhaps, but it is those religious people who bring religion into government, when is the last time you can recall a president running a campaign stating he was atheist?
There is a big difference between having Religious People in Government and having Religion in Government Rand Al'Thor writes:
Very true, it is pointless to only vote due to religious affiliations.
What I hate is people that will vote for bush no matter how bad a job he does. All they care about is having a "strong" christian in the government. custard writes:
True, however, do you believe we should atleast try? Do you believe it is right to take the words 'under God' out of The Pledge to the Flag? Although a small change, it will bring forth a chain reaction of religious disputes. Once the tides shift, there would be no stopping it.
Religion is so dominant shaping rules about morality and social norms upon which so many of our laws are based, that it seems almost impossible to extricate one from the other. custard writes: art of being in a democracy is that you have to suffer the will of the majority. If the will of the majority creates laws based on religious beliefs - abortion restriction, controlled substances, tax exemptions for religious institutions, then I don't see how one can avoid the influence of religion. You do raise a good point about the majority rules, which makes any changes in these areas improbable, unless we decide to vote for a politician who is an athiest as our next president. Which makes me wonder have there ever been any politicians that high in the ranks that have said they were athiest? This message has been edited by JCPalmer, 05-29-2004 04:07 PM - Mistake made, referred to the words 'under God' as being in the National Anthem This message has been edited by JCPalmer, 05-29-2004 04:10 PM
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
This nation was founded in the name of God. It was and is its freedom that allows you to "not believe in God"
Funny, without God you might have never had that chance to "not belive in God" The real problem isn't God anyway. Its mans interpretation of him. If a man was capable of interpreting God's word wrong, then he is possible of interpreting anything wrong. So a president would be an idiot if he belived in God or not. Same for anyone else in politics.
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JCPalmer Inactive Member |
This nation was founded in the name of freedom. God did not grant any right to the freedom of our nation, he 'came along for the ride.' If he did, well then I would not be an atheist, because that would have been proof that he was real.
As a side note, whose God is it founded for now? There seems to be so many in our nation. In fact, whose to say it was founded, although I'am not positive of the religion of the Native Americans, I believe they had different Gods as well. riVeRaT writes:
I can only assume you mean, because of God I was given the chance to not believe in him. Granting me the freedom of thought? Well, I do not believe in a God, so there was no one to grant me this freedom. Funny how without God, humans would never have fought in all those 'crusades.'
Funny, without God you might have never had that chance to "not belive in God" riVeRraT writes:
I never stated a problem in God, I was stating a problem within religious beliefs and the Government. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'am not too familiar with the Governmental and Political Process of God, does he have any? Is his word relevant and or should it be relevant in a time of war? I don't ever remember him negotiating a peaceful process to solve World War I, World War II, Vietnam, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom... the list goes on... and on... Or perhaps as you stated he intended this nation which was founded in his name to allow slavery for so many years? So until he as intervened, which, well looks unlikely to me, I believe is word should not be taken into consideration on how to govern our nation. The real problem isn't God anyway. Its mans interpretation of him. If a man was capable of interpreting God's word wrong, then he is possible of interpreting anything wrong. So a president would be an idiot if he belived in God or not. Same for anyone else in politics. (Note - I in no way intended this topic to question the 'word of God' I would appreciate it if you would reply based on previous questions, but if you must correct me, or comment feel free. Also by intervened I mean physically, I know many say God has intervened spiritually.) This message has been edited by JCPalmer, 05-28-2004 11:36 PM
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custard Inactive Member |
Which is why it is fortunate that the US is not and hopefully will never be, a Democracy. OK, ok technically we're a republic, but look at states were referendum has become the norm: Oregon for example. That's about as close to democracy as it gets. In any case, citizens of Republics are subject to a similar 'will of the majority' that democracies are. That's why some states still have morality laws (can't buy alcohol, cigarettes, panty hose on Sundays, etc.) and some don't. You state doesn't approve of legalized marijuana? Move to California. Legalized suicide? Move to Oregon. No way these measures pass in Utah. I agree that governments should be secular, it's certainly in anyone's best interest who is not a member of the religion that is in the majority, but the fact of the matter is, most of the laws and morals in the US are derived from the bible.
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custard Inactive Member |
Thought you all might find this interesting. This purportedly comes from the Tennessee state constitution. I trust the source as it is dedicated to truth and it corrects any misrepresented facts promptly.
From JREF - Home:
ARTICLE IX Disqualifications {for public office}: Section 1. Whereas ministers of the Gospel are by their profession, dedicated to God and the care of souls, and ought not to be diverted from the great duties of their functions; therefore, no minister of the Gospel, or priest of any denomination whatever, shall be eligible to a seat in either House of the Legislature. Section 2. No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state. So you can't be an active minister of the Gospel (wonder if that precludes rabbis? Oh wait, this is Tennessee... never mind), but you also can't be an athiest or someone who doesn't believe in the afterlife. This type of thing seems to bolster the argument our govt was established in the name of Christianity as well as freedom.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I agree that governments should be secular, it's certainly in anyone's best interest who is not a member of the religion that is in the majority, but the fact of the matter is, most of the laws and morals in the US are derived from the bible. Are they? Or are they derived from the same source the Bible derives from - a recognition that societies prosper when certain behaviors are restricted. (Obviously, not everyone agrees on what those certain behaviors are supposed to be.) I mean, it doesn't take a genius, or divine inspiration, to make killing and stealing seem like a bad thing to allow. The fact that the Bible is the most popular book in America that says that, I think, is incidental to the fact that we have laws that would seem to agree. If nobody had ever read the Bible, killing and stealing would still be illegal, because that's just sense. Also, you might notice that moralistic perscriptions that are unique to the Bible - like the prohibition against clothing of mixed fiber, or eating shellfish - always fail to make it into law. I'd say that's a pretty good indication that our laws are based on practical necessity, not the Bible.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1466 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
This type of thing seems to bolster the argument our govt was established in the name of Christianity as well as freedom. Well, it certainly bolsters the argument that a number of people have thought that was the case. Like, the folks in Tennessee who made that law. Honestly, though, I suspect that law wouldn't survive any court in this country. It's clearly unconstitutional on the face of it. Maybe our government was established for Christians. The courts and Constitution, though, seem to have been established for everybody. This message has been edited by crashfrog, 05-29-2004 04:42 AM "What gets me is all the mean things people say about Secular Humanism without even taking the time to read some of our basic scriptures, such as the Bill of Rights or Omni magazine." - Barbara Ehrenreich
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