God's judgement and Determinism

Hi there!This is my first post on these forums. I study psychology at the Erasmus University of Rotterdam (Netherlands) with a specialization in biological/evolutionary psychology. I consider myself to be a genuine agnostic in this matter, believing there are convincing arguments both in favour and against both positions.In this topic, I'd like to discuss what's been a fascinating issue for me for a long time: the conflict between the Biblical concept of being judged by God and the philosophical theory of determinism (or causality).The Bible, as most other Holy Books, clearly states that people on earth are judged by their works on the earth:"I saw the dead, both important and unimportant people, standing in front of the throne. Books were opened, including the Book of Life. The dead were judged on the basis of what they had done, as recorded in the books." (Revelations 20: 12)However, the Bible also contains passages suggesting that God is a fair judge:"God is a righteous judge, a God who expresses his wrath every day." (Psalm, 7: 11)The argument I'd like to make: A fair and just God cannot judge humans based on their behaviour, because all human behaviour is determined by causality, which is outside of our control. I'll elaborate on the question why this is so.In introductory psychology courses, we sometimes draw a little diagram to show how behaviour is determined. It comes down to this:
Genes + environment = personality. Personality + situation = behaviour.Genes and environment determine your personality. Personality and situation determine your behaviour. Your genetic makeup is inherited from your parents and outside of your control. So is your upbringing and so is the environment you are born in. The situation you find yourself in may be arbitrary at times and at other times a consequence of your personality interacting with the environment. This leads to the following conclusion:Your personality and behaviour are not voluntary choises.There's also a more physical way of thinking about this. Everything you ever do, feel or think is a consequence of your brain interacting with the laws of physics. Consciousness is a product of the brain. And the brain is a product of the laws of physics interacting with matter in the universe.Initial state of the universe + laws of physics = later state of the universeThis includes human brains and therefore, human behaviour. We really do not have a free will. Everything we do is a consequence of a prior, physical cause.The conflict is this:
God claims to be infallible and just, yet the Bible says that He judges humans on their behaviour on earth, which we now know to be completely deterministic and outside of human control or influence. Doing this would make God immoral and, therefore, no longer infallible, and therefore, no longer God.I'm interested to hear what (especially religious) people have to answer to this. Do they suggest that God doesn't judge people on their behaviours? Do they think that determinism is wrong, and why so?

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

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Usually, in a well-conducted debate, speakers are either emotionally uncommitted or can preserve sufficient detachment to maintain a coolly academic approach.-- Encyclopedia Brittanica, on debate

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Welcome to EvC! This can be a rather rousing discussion, and I would like to help you focus on where you want it to go. So in essence, we are about to reexamine the age old philosophical battle of Free Will versus Determinism. There are several good spots on the internet that examine these philosophies from many different premises and beliefs. Before we really get started discussing these issues, keep in mind that since we are in the Faith/Belief Forum, many beliefs can be discussed on these psychological theories from philosophical points of view. Yes, the Bible clearly states a lot of things, but they can be interpreted so many different ways. When you say "religious folks" you are opening up a vast category of sub-beliefs.I will chip in my two cents worth to get this party started. Lets look at the example of a murder case being tried in a court of law. The defense attorney may argue that the accused had a rough childhood. Perhaps they were exposed to watching their father beat their mother. Perhaps they were molested or abused. Perhaps they were orphaned and had no real concept of family or of a healthy perspective on human behavior.Does this then mean that the accused was not responsible for the actions that they took? Did they in fact have no true free will since their impressions and emotions and reactions were all caused by earlier circumstances which affected their life? So tell that to the judge if you are a Defense Attorney representing a murderer. Edited by Phat, : fixed broken quote

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"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
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“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
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"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

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Yes, the Bible clearly states a lot of things, but they can be interpreted so many different ways. When you say "religious folks" you are opening up a vast category of sub-beliefs.

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I'm inclined to think that a majority of Bible/Koran believers does interpret the judgement as being very real. Without it, there would be little ground for behaving morally during earthly life.However, even if you don't, the consequences are still very interesting. If you don't think that people are judged, there really isn't any reason to obey the ten commandmends or even believe in God. I don't think that most christians and muslims go about it this way.

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Does this then mean that the accused was not responsible for the actions that they took? Did they in fact have no true free will since their impressions and emotions and reactions were all caused by earlier circumstances which affected their life?

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I think we should differentiate between "responsible" in the legal sense and in the moral sense.Legally, the murderer may be responsible for what he has done. There are also many practical reasons to lock up murderers. (E.g. to discourage criminal behaviour, to protect society from dangerous people and to give the relatives of the victim a certain sense of justice)However, the question I'm really interested in is whether or not we can morally judge the murderer. If I had been born with the same genes as the murderer, received the same upbrining as the murderer, the same environment as the murderer, and so on. I would have probably behaved like the murderer.

I think they should stick to teaching Psychology.

It's quite a jump to that conclusion.If we had no choice, your claims about God's judgement might have some validity. If He told us not to do something and we were forced by circumstances to do it anyway, with no volition on our own part, then punishing us for doing it would indeed be evil.But you're far from showing that we have no choice.Which is the topic here? Whether we have choices or whether God respects those choices?

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

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But you're far from showing that we have no choice.

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Could you elaborate some more on that?

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Which is the topic here? Whether we have choices or whether God respects those choices?

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The topic is the apparent conflict between our lack of free will and God's judgement.It's a problem that can only be solved if you either postulate that:a) We do have a free will
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b) God doesn't judge our behaviourIf you have evidence for any of the two, I'd like to see it! ;-)Edited by The Agnostic, : Typo

I'm walking through the mall and I see a young mother with a baby in a stroller. I grab the baby and smash its head against the wall.Or not. How is that not free will?If you're assuming "our lack of free will", then God's injustice is a foregone conclusion and there's no topic. If free will is the question, what's the problem with God's judgement?

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

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I'm walking through the mall and I see a young mother with a baby in a stroller. I grab the baby and smash its head against the wall.

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Or not. How is that not free will?

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That decision is made in your brain. Your brain obeys the laws of physics. Electric potentials, firing neurons, neurotransmitters all obey the laws of physics. There is nothing spiritual about human behaviour, it can be seen as a deterministic, predictable, physical process.Everything you have ever done, said or thought has a prior, physical cause. Events without cause do not occur (though one could argue that there must have been some sort of first cause that started off the universe). Since these physical events are determined solely by the laws of physics (and the initial state of the universe), you cannot attribute humans a free will.Claiming to have a free will is like claiming that you don't obey the laws of physics.If you think we DO have a free will, where do you think it comes from? It certainly cannot be anything physical.

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If you're assuming "our lack of free will", then God's injustice is a foregone conclusion and there's no topic. If free will is the question, what's the problem with God's judgement?

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If we do not posess a free will, it would be immoral for God to judge us. God is, by definition, not immoral. Therefore, if one can prove that we do not have a free will, theists have a serious problem.

I didn't say anything was "spiritual".Sure, our brains obey the laws of physics and we can observe individual processes. But the sum total of all the neuron-firing is far from "predictable". If human behaviour was predictable, we could - guess what - predict it. Until we can follow all those individual pathways, it's premature to assert that human behaviour is deterministic. You're miscontruing what free will is. Free will is "programmed" into the brain, if you will, by all those past experiences. Given a choice to be made where there is no exact experience to draw on, we have to use approximations. We have to decide which past experience(s) most closely resemble the present situation and we have to weigh one set of approximations against another set of approximations to decide on an appropriate behaviour.In the context of the topic, God would (hypothetically) compare our choice to His (presumably correct) choice in the same situation and judge how well our "program" worked. You could think of God's judgement as a debugging process: with a given set of input data, how well does the program perform? If the performance is adequate, you don't worry too much about the process. Both of those statements depend on your definition of "immoral" - another highly debatable point. You need to make up your mind what you want to discuss here. Theists have plenty of problems, but your supposed "proof" that we don't have free will ain't one of 'em.

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

Why do you say that? It seems a perfectly reasonable assertation.

You could argue that all of your experiences, learning and native ability to moderate implusive behaviour dictate that you absolutely will not bash the kiddies head in.If you think about the mountains of reasons you have not to bash the kids' head in you could conclude that you have almost no choice at all in regards to selecting or not selecting that particular behaviour.

How do you explain the people who do choose to bash the kiddie's head in?

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

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How do you explain the people who do choose to bash the kiddie's head in?

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Different genes, different upbringing, different past experiences, brain damage, psychological trauma.Again, all factors beyond human control.

How is "different upbringing" beyond human control? It just moves the control back a generation. In the context of the topic, God would judge your behaviour based partially on how well you had learned what your parents taught you. If they taught you to be good and you weren't, it would go against you.I'll ask again: what do you want to discuss? Whether or not we can make choices? Whether or not we're responsible for our choices? Or is it just another God-bashing thread?

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Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.