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Author Topic:   The Biblical God Incompatible With Big Bang.
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 149 (379255)
01-23-2007 4:01 PM


1. Big Bang conventional science claims that space and time originated with the Big Bang as I understand it.
2. There was no outside of the BB and no before the BB as I understand conventional science to claim.
3. The Biblical God claims to have no beginning nor end, being an eternal supreme being.
4. The Biblical God claims to exist in a location in the universe where a throne, angels and other beings exist in the universe.
5. Problem #1: No outside of means no space for God to exist in before the alleged BB.
6. Problem #2: No before the alleged BB for God to have preceeded the BB according to conventional science.
How do our BB friends who profess the Biblical god as their god reconcile with problems 1 and 2?
For promotion in the Faith And Belief Forum, please.
Edited by Buzsaw, : Correct title

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Omnivorous, posted 01-24-2007 10:09 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 4 by Vacate, posted 01-24-2007 10:43 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 6 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-24-2007 11:53 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 7 by jar, posted 01-24-2007 11:57 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 11 by Taz, posted 01-24-2007 12:35 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 12 by cavediver, posted 01-24-2007 1:11 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 13 by PaulK, posted 01-24-2007 1:32 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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Message 2 of 149 (379454)
01-24-2007 8:34 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Omnivorous
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Message 3 of 149 (379468)
01-24-2007 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
01-23-2007 4:01 PM


Hi, Buz. I want to see if I understand you correctly.
Your logic is:
According to the BB theory, there was no space or time before the Big Bang.
God requires space and time to exist.
Therefore, the existence of the Biblical God is incompatible with the theory of the Big Bang.
Do you truly intend to assert that God needs space and time to exist, and that His construction of Heaven is limited by space in the same way the expansion of my house is bounded by my yard? Couldn't God make my house bigger than my yard if He wished? I would have thought you would see Him as unlimited by anything.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 01-23-2007 4:01 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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Vacate
Member (Idle past 4601 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 4 of 149 (379474)
01-24-2007 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
01-23-2007 4:01 PM


Problem #1: No outside of means no space for God to exist in before the alleged BB
I believe this is incorrect in that BB only deals with this time and space. I have never read anything that suggests that time/space could not exist before BB, only the study of BB does not cover it. I read a theory that our corner of the universe may be speeding up towards a possible other universe - this is only speculation I think, but it does show that science does not limit time/space to this particular universe.
My explanation is poor, I know. I hope others can better explain where I am wrong, or better word how I am right

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 01-23-2007 4:01 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 01-24-2007 11:46 AM Vacate has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 149 (379480)
01-24-2007 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Vacate
01-24-2007 10:43 AM


1. By definition universe means everything existing.
2. If space existed anywhere before the BB there would be an outside of the BB singularity event.
3. Whenever I've tried to play the "outside of" or the "before" card in science debate I got emphatically advised that there were neither by resident BBists.
Gotta leave for now I'll get to Omni and any others later.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Vacate, posted 01-24-2007 10:43 AM Vacate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-24-2007 11:58 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 9 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-24-2007 12:16 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 14 by Son Goku, posted 01-24-2007 1:40 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 20 by Vacate, posted 01-25-2007 2:49 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 6 of 149 (379484)
01-24-2007 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
01-23-2007 4:01 PM


Why can't God light the fuse?
If God is eternal (infinite) then space and time (which are finite) cannot contain this being. No problem arises with God pre-existing the universe. This is exactly what we would expect.
As it seems all your other objections to the Big Bang theory follow from the premise, there's no problem.
omnivorous and Vacate, I see, have already called your attention to this. Interesting that all us skeptics should have to tell you how powerful your God is.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 149 (379485)
01-24-2007 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
01-23-2007 4:01 PM


Wonderful Buz
You just proved that God is not supernatural. ROTFLMAO

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 01-23-2007 4:01 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 8 of 149 (379486)
01-24-2007 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
01-24-2007 11:46 AM


buz:
By definition universe means everything existing.
I believe that for science purposes the definition of 'universe' is necessarily restricted to 'the space-time universe.' The reason is practical: we can't see beyond that.
The scientists here can check me on this.
____

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 9 of 149 (379491)
01-24-2007 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
01-24-2007 11:46 AM


buz:
Whenever I've tried to play the "outside of" or the "before" card in science debate I got emphatically advised that there were neither by resident BBists.
Sometimes I think the scientists and fundies deserve each other. What a pack of literalists.
Literally, no, you can't have an 'outside' or a 'before' when space and time do not exist. When one uses these words one is using metaphors. One talks as if space and time existed where it doesn't.
But as long as you know that's what you're doing, it's fine. Metaphors can't be avoided. It is only by the use of metaphoric language that we can discuss the situation at all. All human language and thought is conditioned by this universe of space and time.
Next time see if it helps anything to use scare quotes. Instead of referring simply to something before and outside the Big Bang, try referring to something 'before' and 'outside' the Big Bang. The science types will see that you're savvy to the paradox and it might cool their jets a bit.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : messing around.

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by cavediver, posted 01-24-2007 12:33 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3644 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 10 of 149 (379499)
01-24-2007 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Archer Opteryx
01-24-2007 12:16 PM


Instead of referring simply to something before and outside the Big Bang, try referring to something 'before' and 'outside' the Big Bang. The science types will see that you're savvy to the paradox and it might cool their jets a bit.
Yes, you're quite right... we will. Rather than replying
quote:
I'm sorry, you're talking bollocks
we'll try a different approach with
quote:
I'm sorry, you're talking 'bollocks'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-24-2007 12:16 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Archer Opteryx, posted 01-24-2007 2:20 PM cavediver has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 11 of 149 (379500)
01-24-2007 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
01-23-2007 4:01 PM


Buzsaw writes:
4. The Biblical God claims to exist in a location in the universe where a throne, angels and other beings exist in the universe.
I highly recommend you read Flatland by Edwin Abbott to get a better perspective of of existence and reality. Frankly, Buz, you have a very limited view of a supreme being.

AKA G.A.S.B.Y.
George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger

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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3644 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 12 of 149 (379511)
01-24-2007 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
01-23-2007 4:01 PM


1. Big Bang conventional science claims that space and time originated with the Big Bang as I understand it.
In the traditional sense of General Relativity, yes, although there are many extended scenarios where this is not the case. However, I would hesitate to call them 'Big Bang' scenarios as such, even though they contain the same observed expansion and other Big Bang features (CMBR, etc).
2. There was no outside of the BB and no before the BB as I understand conventional science to claim.
Yes, but with the same caveat as point 1.
3. The Biblical God claims to have no beginning nor end, being an eternal supreme being.
Would certainly agree to that.
4. The Biblical God claims to exist in a location in the universe where a throne, angels and other beings exist in the universe.
Huh? He does? Can I go visit then in my spacecraft? Should I be concerned if enough atheists (human or otherwise) decide to take a visit with an almighty arsenal of Planckian mega-bombs... I'm sure god will be fine, but those angels and that throne could take a beating! You'd have thought god would have learnt after that debacle with Ar-Pharazn...
5. Problem #1: No outside of means no space for God to exist in before the alleged BB.
How many dimensions of space does God require to enable his existence? And of time? Is he 3+1 (3d space + time) by nature, or is he more the 25+1 of bosonic string theory (I've always seen fermions as the devil's invention)
6. Problem #2: No before the alleged BB for God to have preceeded the BB according to conventional science.
If god is bound to our time and he is everywhere in our universe then do bits of him get destroyed in black hole singularities? Or does he withdraw his presence - just in time? Perhaps god has never seen inside an event horizon!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 01-23-2007 4:01 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 01-25-2007 1:31 AM cavediver has replied
 Message 43 by Phat, posted 01-26-2007 6:06 AM cavediver has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 13 of 149 (379517)
01-24-2007 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
01-23-2007 4:01 PM


I'm not going to criticise your post but I'm going to ask you to think about some things - and you really should present your case.
quote:
4.. The Biblical God claims to exist in a location in the universe where a throne, angels and other beings exist in the universe.
Do the verses you have in mind really say this ?
Are they intended to be read literally ?
Could they refer to the current situation ? Couldn't God create the Universe and then set up his throne within it ?
Simce God is said to be a spirit, a non-physical being, would he need space to exist in ?

This message is a reply to:
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Son Goku
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 149 (379518)
01-24-2007 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
01-24-2007 11:46 AM


3. Whenever I've tried to play the "outside of" or the "before" card in science debate I got emphatically advised that there were neither by resident BBists.
Firstly, BBists makes no sense. There are no Big Bangists (I can't even imagine what that would involve), there are those that think GR and QFTs accuracy at describing the early universe has demonstrated itself and that that "Big Bang" solutions of GR best describe the evolution of the Cosmos.
Secondly, the reason we are hesitant to use those words is two-fold. One of the reasons is already covered here, words like before and outside making little sense when talking about spacetime as a whole.
However the second, possibly the stronger reason, is that the Big Bang is governed by Planckian Scale physics (Quantum Gravity) and we have no idea what concepts from previous physics holds at these scales.
(Some are hesitant to use "Energy")
Edited by Son Goku, : Spelling mistake

This message is a reply to:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 15 of 149 (379524)
01-24-2007 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by cavediver
01-24-2007 12:33 PM


cavediver:
Yes, you're quite right... we will. Rather than replying
quote:I'm sorry, you're talking bollocks
we'll try a different approach with
quote:I'm sorry, you're talking 'bollocks'
It was a quick fix, I admit.
I'm concerned about that reference to a throne and angels in Item 4.
Buz -- you do recognize, don't you, that the same situation applies when talking about metaphysical beings as when talking about 'physics' pre-dating the existence of anything physical?
Metaphor is the only way to talk about these things. But one has to know one is using metaphor. If you talk naively about time 'before' time and space 'outside' space, you'll get called on it. And if you talk naively about a noncorporeal being sitting on a throne, you'll get called on that, too.
Anyone who talks about metaphysical beings has to talk as if they sit on thrones, as if they fly, sing, change their minds, etc. But it doesn't do to be literal. These images are ways of picturing that which cannot be pictured. The ancients could only talk and think in terms of the universe they lived in, as we do.
To think in naively concrete terms about something as simple as God sitting in a chair creates all kinds of problems. Would an eternal, omnipresent Supreme Being be subject to the law of gravity? Does a noncorporeal being have a butt?
More seriously: you cut the legs out from under your own theology if you really make your deity that limited.
___
Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : more typo repair.

This message is a reply to:
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