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Author Topic:   Revealing the Truth to People (false signs and wonders)
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 1 of 25 (355821)
10-11-2006 7:58 AM


In another thread, we are discussing supernatural events.
Supernatural events
With all the shams of preachers, i.e. gemstones from heaven, green miracle rags, orbs in pictures, and the gullability of people, folks are believing this stuff.
Being a seeker of truth, and exactly what God wants us to be, this concerns me.
Nobody wants to reveal these fakes more than me, and I have no problem telling others. my Pastor, the congregation, whatever. But it's been told to me, that I may not be correct in doing this. I was told I could be letting peoples hopes down.
I say what's the sense of having false hope?
What do you guys think I should do about it?
Should I continue revealing the truth?
If so, whats the best way of going about this?
Do I have a right to mess with what people believe in?
Oh, and BTW, it is something I have prayed about for some time now. At a conference of about 500 people, this guy at the very end ( I was there 3 days) started showing us pictures with orbs, and anomalys, saying it was spirits from God. I knew it wasn't. An overwelming feeling of anger came over me, and I prayed right there on the spot. The answer I felt I got was, if you run into this guy, then tell him what you know.
We were leaving in 10 minutes, so I didn't think was going to happen. We walked out early to get a head start back home, and on the way out, I bumped into...you got it, the guy. My wife was with me. I proceeded to tell him all that I knew about orbs in pictures, and he looked like a kid that just dropped his ice cream cone. By that look I knew he honestly thought they were real. He also mentioned that he had a newspaper photographer tell him that they were unexplainable and were probably real. So he did make an attempt at trying to confirm that they were real. He gave me his email, and I emailed him all that I knew about it. I did not recive a response, so I don't know what happened after that, I am dying to find out.
I was concerned because this guy teaches courses on integrety, and I don't want people who are smart to think he doesn't have integrety, and possibly stop looking for God based on this crap. The thought of false idles comes to mind also.
I even wrote to that Patricia King about her little video on orbs.
(Patricia King's website is the one hosting the video about the gemstones)
Yes, I am fustrated.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by nwr, posted 10-11-2006 9:18 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 4 by nyenye, posted 10-11-2006 9:36 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 5 by jar, posted 10-11-2006 12:03 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 7 by ramoss, posted 10-11-2006 12:53 PM riVeRraT has not replied
 Message 21 by iceage, posted 10-12-2006 2:40 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
AdminNWR
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 25 (355837)
10-11-2006 9:03 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 3 of 25 (355843)
10-11-2006 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
10-11-2006 7:58 AM


Change churches
It is said by political commentators, that the 11th commandment is "thou shalt not speak ill of thy fellow republicans". It seems that there is a similar principle among fundamentalists
There is a core of fakery within fundamentalism. It seems that fundamentalists are a self-selected group of gullible folk. I'm not saying that all fundamentalists are gullible. I am suggesting that, as a group, they contain a higher proportion of gullible folk than the population as a whole. The core of fakery is exploiting those gullible folk.
The failure of many Christians to criticize this fakery makes a strong case for atheism - perhaps a stronger case than Richard Dawkins could ever make.
My advice would be to find a church less willing to condone these sorts of practices.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 10-11-2006 7:58 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by riVeRraT, posted 10-11-2006 5:45 PM nwr has seen this message but not replied

  
nyenye
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 25 (355849)
10-11-2006 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
10-11-2006 7:58 AM


I would imagine, orbs in photographs are usually dust; do you have the pics, I could take a look to either A) Prove them real or B) Prove them false... I deal with the paranormal and spiritual photography. I have been a paranormal investigator for 8 years.. Anyways orbs are nothing more than energy from spirits or energy in general. Energy can never be destroyed or replaced; it circulates this earth... Not saying that it's not a message from God, but think about it and let me know. I have plenty of pictures with orbs, I've seen a few with my own eyes, many colors and sizes; I don't believe they are blessings from God in any way, and about the gems it's interesting, but God to me does not have to show proof of any sort, I know he is there guiding me and helping me. In a way I think that the gems are kind of like a false idol... just there to prove a point in a way....
As well some of these people are looking for anything they can find to prove God existance, but they miss a key factor faith... Faith does not come from a shiney ornament it comes from the heart and soul, your foundation!
Edited by Nyeusigrube, : adding

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 10-11-2006 7:58 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Asgara, posted 10-11-2006 12:42 PM nyenye has replied
 Message 8 by riVeRraT, posted 10-11-2006 5:43 PM nyenye has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 5 of 25 (355882)
10-11-2006 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
10-11-2006 7:58 AM


What you need to ask yourself
is why are so many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists so easily fooled? Why do people believe the nonsense put forward by the Carl Baughs, Ron Wyatts, Gene Scotts, Kent Hovinds as well as all of the prayer hankies and videos and prayer cards and all of the other absolutely silly stuff that the televangelists peddle?
If you really want to help your brothers, what needs to be addressed? Is it possible to debunk each claim individually? If you debunk a peddlers con game, like the orbs being peddled by Patricia King, why is that not an automatic flag to all that warns folk off from the gemstone scam?
How do you help your brethern develop BS detectors?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 10-11-2006 7:58 AM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 6 of 25 (355892)
10-11-2006 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by nyenye
10-11-2006 9:36 AM


I have been a paranormal investigator for 8 years.
How old were you went you started, ten? What methods do you use for your investigations?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by nyenye, posted 10-11-2006 9:36 AM nyenye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by nyenye, posted 10-12-2006 8:17 AM Asgara has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 7 of 25 (355897)
10-11-2006 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
10-11-2006 7:58 AM


It seems to me there are two types of 'false signs'. One is the false sign that is deception. The other is the false sign that is self-deception. Those people who decieve others are doing it on purpose, and it wouldn't bother them in the slightest that someone calls them on it, since they are into it to for self gain. As long as there are new marks to send money, they'll keep on using the same sales pitch.
Then there are the self-deceived. These people are actual seekers, but they need some kind of reassurance. They believe odd things because it gives them strength in their faith. Many of these people will resent having their beliefs challenged. They are also those people that are the prey of the ones that deceive others. The ones that deceive others prey on the desire of the ones that need reassurance in their faith. The ones that are like that tend to be conservative, distrustful of change, and more comfortable in looking at the past that facing the future.
People will only 'see' the truth about the false signs when they want to. There are people who will be willing to truly examine their beliefs, and many of them will modify their beliefs to some degree. They are all too rare though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 10-11-2006 7:58 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 8 of 25 (355959)
10-11-2006 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by nyenye
10-11-2006 9:36 AM


I would imagine, orbs in photographs are usually dust; do you have the pics,
Yes, it is dust, coupled with the wavelength of llight that CCd chips are capable of picking up. Also poor quality lenses( with chromatic aberrations), and bad exposures with flash, that create all these kinds of effects.
I have already debunked ever photo like this I have ever seen, and re-create the effects at will. Even the manufactures of the cameras themsselves have information on their web-sites explaining it.
Anyways orbs are nothing more than energy from spirits or energy in general.
There is no evidence of orbs, at all.
Not saying that it's not a message from God, but think about it and let me know.
No, I do not think it is a message from God, at all.
Faith does not come from a shiney ornament it comes from the heart and soul, your foundation!
I agree.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by nyenye, posted 10-11-2006 9:36 AM nyenye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by nyenye, posted 10-12-2006 8:04 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 9 of 25 (355960)
10-11-2006 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by nwr
10-11-2006 9:18 AM


Re: Change churches
My advice would be to find a church less willing to condone these sorts of practices.
The head Pastor of my church completely agrees with me, and immediatly stopped showing pictures of orbs, once I presented him the facts.
It's the other people in the church that are being gullable. I am slightly fearful of telling them it's fake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by nwr, posted 10-11-2006 9:18 AM nwr has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 10-11-2006 6:17 PM riVeRraT has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 10 of 25 (355970)
10-11-2006 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by riVeRraT
10-11-2006 5:45 PM


Re: Change churches
It's the other people in the church that are being gullable. I am slightly fearful of telling them it's fake.
That is reasonable. The problem I have is with your Pastor. You said:
The head Pastor of my church completely agrees with me, and immediatly stopped showing pictures of orbs, once I presented him the facts.
The problem is that he just stopped using that example. He did NOT speak out to the members and tell them the truth, and did not start a class and sermons on critical thinking and bullshit detection.
We need more and more of the Christian Clergy to speak out against the liars and conmen that seem so common in the US Evangelistic and Fundamentalist movements. He is supposed to lead the flock, to guide them. Simply stopping using one example isn't the answer. Our Clergy needs to be actively teaching folk how to detect such nonsense.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by riVeRraT, posted 10-11-2006 5:45 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Taz, posted 10-12-2006 9:25 AM jar has not replied
 Message 16 by riVeRraT, posted 10-12-2006 9:32 AM jar has replied

  
nyenye
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 25 (356090)
10-12-2006 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by riVeRraT
10-11-2006 5:43 PM


lol

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by riVeRraT, posted 10-11-2006 5:43 PM riVeRraT has not replied

  
nyenye
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 25 (356092)
10-12-2006 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Asgara
10-11-2006 12:42 PM


Started when I was around 10-11 yrs old. I had always seen things and never really feared it I just craved to learn more, so a friend and I started our own group called SCOWM (spirit communicaters of Western Michigan) I have all of my photos/evps I've kept over the years I have to set up a website or something. We would use video cameras, tapes, electronical recorders, different kinds of mics, dowsing rods, cameras, and EMF detectors * that was stolen last year *. But yeah we'd go to houses and places that we felt drawn to, we mainly are there to communicate with spirits and help them reach the otherside of they were lost; we have helped many. I've asked one of the largest Ghost hunters in the area GHOSM ( Ghost hunters of western Michigan) and they denied me endless times, though my experience is quite extensive.... They react too much to orbs and objects in photos when its either A) bugs or B) dust/debris
I don't know, I have like 7 apparition photos I will try to scan them and show you... if you would like... I have a pictures I took of a tv screen just messing around with my new cam, and there is a childs face in it. The tv show has a rock concert on it; but the colors and size of the boy are much different than the people on the tv show. The boy is somehow in our realm but still stuck in a electrical world aswell, it almost looks like he is coming out of the screen.... I swear this is all real, and not a face on the tv show check it shortened link (full view)
Right above the flash you can see him, real 50's style and wearing blue shirt! Enjoy thanks for your intrest
Edited by Nyeusigrube, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminJar, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Asgara, posted 10-11-2006 12:42 PM Asgara has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 25 (356098)
10-12-2006 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
10-11-2006 12:03 PM


Re: What you need to ask yourself
Jar writes:
How do you help your brethern develop BS detectors?
One mans cowpie is another mans cooking fuel. BTW where is your B.S. detector? I remember it quite well!
Sometimes we want to believe stuff when there is no reason to do so. Thats why the council of many is a good thing.
Forsake not the assembling together of the brethren....
Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by jar, posted 10-11-2006 12:03 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Taz, posted 10-12-2006 9:27 AM Phat has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 14 of 25 (356114)
10-12-2006 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by jar
10-11-2006 6:17 PM


Re: Change churches
jar writes:
The problem is that he just stopped using that example. He did NOT speak out to the members and tell them the truth, and did not start a class and sermons on critical thinking and bullshit detection.
This very fact tells me that the pastor himself is dishonest and aims to deceive. He knows now that someone among the sheeps are not as gullible as the rest, so he can't go on using the fake examples. He also doesn't want to stop deceiving so he is now passively deceiving people. If someone calls him on it, he'll simply say that he knew about it and stopped talking about it and that he couldn't help what these other people believe.
It's deception by not telling a lie but doesn't correct the audience either when they assumed the wrong conclusion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by jar, posted 10-11-2006 6:17 PM jar has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 15 of 25 (356115)
10-12-2006 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
10-12-2006 8:32 AM


Re: What you need to ask yourself
Phat writes:
Thats why the council of many is a good thing.
Phat, I completely disagree with this statement. I'd prefer the judgement of an intellectual/academic over the judgement of 10 hicks and hillbillies any day. And yes, I have been in direct contact with these people before. They read at a fifth grade level and they believe the weirdest things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Phat, posted 10-12-2006 8:32 AM Phat has not replied

  
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