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Author Topic:   The "Gospel" Of John
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1516 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 1 of 215 (165126)
12-04-2004 11:45 AM


In several place it's been hinted at.
In several places it has been discussed. And now... the discussion that has been brewing for ages...
(in a galaxy far far away... thundering music..)

"it's in the bible; the bible says it's the word of god."

"i don't think it has any standing because of X"

how do you feel about john? let's get some mad discussin' going on here.

remember kids. people are going to disagree with you; try to keep it civil. this idea has gotten panties bunched every time.

accuracy and inerrancy plz.

This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-09-2004 04:17 AM

Edited by AdminPhat, : bolded title


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 12-06-2004 3:49 AM macaroniandcheese has responded
 Message 22 by purpledawn, posted 12-07-2004 7:09 AM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded
 Message 213 by ScottRP, posted 02-26-2015 4:07 PM macaroniandcheese has not yet responded

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 215 (165156)
12-04-2004 1:30 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10039
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 3 of 215 (165547)
12-06-2004 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by macaroniandcheese
12-04-2004 11:45 AM


The one whom Jesus loved....
What do YOU think about John, brennakimi? I forgot what your basic belief system is, but for the record, I am a theist and I have been profoundly influenced by the Bible at some times and mildly annoyed with it at other times. I base my faith on the Spirit of God which I believe to be in me, but I do not know if i regard the Bible as inerrent. John is quite possibly my favorite among the Gospels, however. How about you?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-04-2004 11:45 AM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-06-2004 10:53 AM Phat has responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1516 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 4 of 215 (165624)
12-06-2004 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
12-06-2004 3:49 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
i think it's a book. i haven't studied it in particular and thus i have not made a decision. i do not place much stock in the bible as a whole as inerrant but i do believe it is an attempt by a people to describe a real god who may or may not be as benevolent as we make him out to be. this is why i started this thread. because i have friends who quite dislike john and those who believe in the infallibility of scripture.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 12-06-2004 3:49 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 10039
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 5 of 215 (165773)
12-06-2004 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by macaroniandcheese
12-06-2004 10:53 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
What type of conversations do you and your friends have concerning this book? Fascinating and respectful that you know people who strongly believe opposite ways!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-06-2004 10:53 AM macaroniandcheese has responded

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 Message 6 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-06-2004 10:55 PM Phat has not yet responded
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1516 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 6 of 215 (165783)
12-06-2004 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
12-06-2004 9:31 PM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
well one of my friends thinks it's heresy. my friends and i are weird and have weird conversations. i'm really easy going and i am more picky about the type of person i hang out with and not what they think.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by arachnophilia, posted 12-06-2004 11:16 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 322 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 7 of 215 (165788)
12-06-2004 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by macaroniandcheese
12-06-2004 10:55 PM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
well one of my friends thinks it's heresy.

you mean me?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-06-2004 10:55 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-08-2004 2:41 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
Swift
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 215 (165798)
12-07-2004 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Phat
12-06-2004 9:31 PM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
I have read all of the threads here and from them I can tell (not trying to be offensive) that both of you do not understand the context and/or meaning of the Gospel of John and the Bible.

I think the reason why you are annoyed with some parts of the Bible is that you don't understand it (again not trying to be offensive). And then some of brennakimi's friends dont like it for what I feel is the same reason. I will in short describe the meaning of the scripture.

It tells about the coming of God in the flesh (Jesus) and his last 3 1/2 years on earth. For those 3 1/2 years he taught the people of Israel as well as the gentiles in the region in which he taught. He had come to teach them of the new covenant that he would make not just for Jews but for the gentiles as well. In the end he died and rose to life again. He did this out of love so that the world might be saved through him and that none may perish but have eternal life in him.

You or your friends may be annoyed with this book or the Bible in general because it points out the need for a savior and that no one can be perfect that everyone has faults and that no one can get to heaven by themselves. That is one of the stresses in the Gospel of John and Jesus even says the people who do wrong flee from the light because their deeds are evil but the people who have done good dwell in the light that their good deeds may be shown by the light.
Whether you think it is inerrant is your decision but in the bible it says: for by grace are you saved by FAITH. Ephs 2:8. Also in John it has a part towards the end where Jesus after he rose came to the disciples and said to Thomas: You believe because you have seen, but blessed are those who believe without seeing.

To be saved you have to believe that the entire bible is true and accept Jesus as God and savior and understand your need for him. You may not believe that but would you really want to take that chance that it might not be true and face eternal separation from God and banishment in Hell. And I do not say these things acusingly. Jesus came to die because he loved everyone who was, is, and will be on earth and to save them from sin.

And if you havent I would recommend watching the Gospel of John the motion picture.
God bless.

(Spellcheck by AdminPhat)

This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-07-2004 12:32 AM


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Replies to this message:
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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 1582 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 9 of 215 (165801)
12-07-2004 12:16 AM


Which John are you talking about? John Zebedee? Beloved Disciple John? Acts John? John the Elder? If you bring in Revelations, you open another can of fish.
    
AdminPhat
Administrator
Posts: 1824
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 10 of 215 (165804)
12-07-2004 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Swift
12-07-2004 12:06 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
In response to NightTrain, most sources pen the authorship of the Gospel of John, 1,2,3 John and Revelation on the same historical figure, namely John the Apostle. There is some disagreement from the more liberal scholars unswayed by Biblical truth claims.

The focus of THIS Topic is on the Gospel of John. To some, it is an inerrant document. God-breathed scripture. To others, it is merely a literary document from History.

Swift, many people here in this forum are not believers. It is fine to present your view and, for the record, I generally agree with you on it. We do need to stay on topic, however. What would Jesus do in such a predicament as you now are in?
Certainly not argue or debate the claims of absolute truth.
Proceed with respect. As Christians, we can pray for people more and debate with them less.

This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 12-07-2004 12:44 AM


This message is a reply to:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 322 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 11 of 215 (165805)
12-07-2004 12:47 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Swift
12-07-2004 12:06 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
I think the reason why you are annyoed with some parts of the Bible is that you don't understand it( agin not trying being offensive). And then some of bernnakimi's friends dont like it for what i feel is the same reason.

i understand it perfectly. in fact, better than you have demonstrated. the gospel of a john is a document of propaganda, not an attempt to record events. it reports jesus as saying things he would not have said (according to the other gospels). these are attributed sayings, designed to defend the religion in its early days. the things jesus says (regarding salvation etc) directly reflect the questioning of the religion in the jewish community at the time.

similarly, the religon at that point was seeking to separate from judaism, and thusly a very negative stance is takn towards jews in the book.

so, because of it's antisemitism, falsely attributed sayings, and propagandic nature, i disregard it as bearing any weight as a holy text.

It tells about the coming of God in the flesh (Jesus)

quote:
Exodus 33:18-23

And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


You or your friends may be annoyed with this book or the Bible in general because it points out the need for a savior and that no one can be perfect

quote:
Gen 6:9 These [are] the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man [and] perfect in his generations, [and] Noah walked with God.

quote:
Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I [am] the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

quote:
1Ki 11:4 For it came to pass, when Solomon was old, [that] his wives turned away his heart after other gods: and his heart was not perfect with the LORD his God, as [was] the heart of David his father.

solomon wasn't perfect... but david was.

quote:
1Ki 15:14 But the high places were not removed: nevertheless Asa's heart was perfect with the LORD all his days.

asa even screws up. still perfect.

quote:
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

and then of course there's jesus, who had to be without blemish in order to be the sacrificial lamb, right?

that eveyone has faults and that no one can get to heaven by themselves.

quote:
Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he [was] not; for God took him.

quote:
2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, [there appeared] a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

for by grace are you saved by by FAITH. Ephs 2:8.

so says paul. does the text above support that?

To be saved you have to belive that all the bible is true

*ahem*

quote:
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith

and accept Jesus as God and savior and understnd your need for him.

actually, as a christian, i'm having a real problem with this one lately. i love god and believe that he does what's best for us. why do i need someone else to die to fit requirements you say god put on me? why would god require a sacrifice, instead of just saying "this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found?"

i've read the book of john. i've read matthew. i've read mark and luke. i've read a good deal of the bible, and it still doesn't make sense to me. this is my issue of faith right now.

but would you really want to take that chance that it might not be true and face etenal seperation from God and banishment in Hell.

why threaten hellfire? you've got a very dualistic misconception here, i think. yes, that's a good way to get converts, threaten and scare them. religion out of fear.

Jesus came to die because he loved everyone who was, is, and will be on earth and to save them from sin

i think jesus's life was far more important.

And if you havint i would reconmend watching the Gospel of John the motion picture.

the passion? do you realize how full of catholic dogma and relic references it is?

i would suggest franco zepherelli's "jesus of nazareth" or "the last temptation of christ" or even "jesus christ superstar" instead.

This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 12-07-2004 12:47 AM


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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 322 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 12 of 215 (165806)
12-07-2004 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by AdminPhat
12-07-2004 12:36 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
In response to NightTrain, most sources pen the authorship of the Gospel of John, 1,2,3 John and Revelation on the same historical figure, namely John the Apostle.

i'm not convinced, but that's another topic.

Swift, many people here in this forum are not believers.

for the record, brennakimi and i are both believers, and we both hold the gospel of john to be greivously flawed. part of my position is in fact very religiously oriented. the gospel of john takes a very negative stance on judaism, god's chosen, and reports christ as saying blasphemous things. i would be lying if i said these objections had nothing to do with my belief.


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Replies to this message:
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Swift
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 215 (165807)
12-07-2004 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by AdminPhat
12-07-2004 12:36 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
I do not say these things on my own accord but for he who sent me.

I am the voice one crying in the desert "Make a straight path for the lord to travel."

I have not debated anything but shown the wanderers there way home.Sort of like a map. Wich is seen as outdated but leads to treasures if one is willing to follow it.

As for what jesus would do... I think he would tell the truth wich i have done not debating anything. I will pray, and shout his name for his name sake.


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Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 322 days)
Posts: 9068
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 14 of 215 (165808)
12-07-2004 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Swift
12-07-2004 12:55 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
you do realize that preaching won't get you very far here, right? especially not since you're preaching to the choir so to speak.

brennakimi and i are BOTH believing christians.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Swift, posted 12-07-2004 12:55 AM Swift has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Swift, posted 12-07-2004 1:30 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
Swift
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 215 (165813)
12-07-2004 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by arachnophilia
12-07-2004 1:02 AM


Re: The one whom Jesus loved....
Jesus was God and sacrificed himself so that we might belive in him. The Gospel of John says that he came to save the world and not condeme it.David sinned, the pope has sinned , you have sinned , I have sinned.Jesus did not and was perfect cause he was God. What greater purpose would there be than to die for his creation in wich he loved.Romans 3:23: "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

Jesus loves everyone and also makes it evedent in the other gospels and throughout Bible.And also everyone should love oneanother. He said in Mathew "You have been told to love your freinds but hate your enemys, but I tell you to love your enemys".When he was dying on the cross he even prayed for the people crucifiing him.


This message is a reply to:
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