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Author Topic:   Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 1 of 314 (110116)
05-24-2004 10:10 AM


Buz, I have asked you to address my point, illustrated by your own example of a man begging for tool money from his wife, that a marriage that has a leader/follower structure (as opposed to a partnereship) inevitably leads to a parent/child type relationship.
I have repeatedly asked you to address it, and since the last (third) request, another 100 posts have gone by without this happening.
I do understand that you were out of town on business last week, but it is quite clear by now that you now are simply refusing to admit that which you already believe.
You DO believe that when the wife is the leader of the marriage, the husband can be reduced to behaving like a begging child.
You said so yourself, for all to see.
This logically means that you DO understand that the opposite must be true; that wives can also be reduced to behaving like a child if the husband is the leader of the marriage.
I have worked in retail for the last 10 years, and just yesterday I saw a woman pick up an item off of a shelf and look at it wistfully. She then turned to me and said, "He won't let me get this." She was referring to her husband, of course, and the item in question was under $20, and was something they both could have enjoyed. He, of course, was buying other items at the cash register at the time.
Why is this scenario OK, but when we switch the genders it becomes unacceptable?
I will cut and paste this post to the Proposed New Topics, so we can begin another thread.
I am sure you want to show that you are not a wimpy, childlike male who doesn't avoid and run away from a debate.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 05-24-2004 10:18 AM nator has replied
 Message 6 by DC85, posted 05-24-2004 10:33 PM nator has not replied
 Message 49 by Hangdawg13, posted 05-31-2004 12:04 AM nator has replied
 Message 76 by riVeRraT, posted 07-22-2004 10:32 AM nator has replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 314 (110117)
05-24-2004 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
05-24-2004 10:10 AM


A better title?
This could use a better title, if you suggest one I will change it.
In addition, could you tell me where this goes? Is it faith and belief?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by nator, posted 05-24-2004 10:10 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by nator, posted 05-24-2004 1:20 PM AdminNosy has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 3 of 314 (110158)
05-24-2004 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminNosy
05-24-2004 10:18 AM


Re: A better title?
Yep, Faith and Belief.
How about, "women and the fundamentalist view of marriage"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminNosy, posted 05-24-2004 10:18 AM AdminNosy has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 4 of 314 (110174)
05-24-2004 2:24 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 314 (110191)
05-24-2004 4:42 PM


From the source topic
I want to be sure that buz doesn't miss my latest post to him in the parent thread. At his request, I softened my rhetoric a bit even though I feel that the very essence of his premise is highly insulting and demeaning.

DC85
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 6 of 314 (110233)
05-24-2004 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by nator
05-24-2004 10:10 AM


The Bible seems to put women in that position
GENESIS 3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
1Timothy 2:12
But I suffer not a women to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence
1CORINTHIANS 11:9
Niether was the man created for the woman; but the women for the man.
these are just a few
This message has been edited by DC85, 05-24-2004 09:52 PM

My site The Atheist Bible
My New Debate Fourms!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 8 by mike the wiz, posted 05-25-2004 10:12 AM DC85 has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 314 (110240)
05-24-2004 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by DC85
05-24-2004 10:33 PM


Paul again.
That is one of the big differences between the Christian and Muslim interpretation of Genesis. In the Muslim version the man and the woman were equal partners and acted together, and shared full and equal responsability for what happened in the Garden.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by riVeRraT, posted 07-22-2004 10:30 AM jar has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 8 of 314 (110376)
05-25-2004 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by DC85
05-24-2004 10:33 PM


Of course, what is noticeable, is that you miss the parts of the bible that promote equality. Jesus talked to and treated women equally, which matters a lot to a christian.
As for Corinthians, it is just referring to Genesis, in that, Adam was lonely and there wasn't found a "help meat" for him.
As for Tinothy - he suffers not women to teach, yet Christ happily listened when a woman told him "even the dogs eat the crumbs from the childrens table".

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-25-2004 10:16 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 11 by Brian, posted 05-25-2004 10:25 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 15 by nator, posted 05-25-2004 10:43 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 67 by PecosGeorge, posted 07-19-2004 5:59 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 314 (110377)
05-25-2004 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by mike the wiz
05-25-2004 10:12 AM


Of course, what is noticeable, is that you miss the parts of the bible that promote equality. Jesus talked to and treated women equally, which matters a lot to a christian.
And they say there's no contradictions in the Bible!
As for Corinthians, it is just referring to Genesis, in that, Adam was lonely and there wasn't found a "help meat" for him.
As for Tinothy - he suffers not women to teach, yet Christ happily listened when a woman told him "even the dogs eat the crumbs from the childrens table".
Some context might be wise, Mike. From where I'm sitting, it sounds like the Bible's telling us that women are, at worst, pieces of meat, and at best, dogs. Dogs Christ is happy to listen to, but dogs nonetheless.
This message has been edited by Dan Carroll, 05-25-2004 09:16 AM

"He supposed that the intent of the Gospels was to teach people, among other things, to be merciful, even to the lowest of the low. But the Gospels actually taught this: Before you kill somebody, make absolutely sure he isn't well connected."
-Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by mike the wiz, posted 05-25-2004 10:12 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by mike the wiz, posted 05-25-2004 10:24 AM Dan Carroll has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 10 of 314 (110382)
05-25-2004 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dan Carroll
05-25-2004 10:16 AM


Ouch - that wasn't my intention - lol. I didn't mean it to sound like women are dogs or meat. Unfortunately it was a badly thought out post, and when I re-read it, it did sound a bit like I was suggesting those things. In actual fact, I only meant by the "even the dogs eat the crumbs" is that the woman seemed to tell Jesus something she had thought up herself and she was eager to, almost - teach him, and guess what - he was pleased with her for the comment.
Also, the Apostles, (who later wrote those quotes from dc85!) were astonished that Christ would treat a woman as equal in these ways.
Tell me, Dan - if I am christian, should I live as a goat herder, sojourning in the land of Israel and sacrificing sheep, or should I adhere to him who saved me, me being a gentile, saved by grace, and not being asked to partake in the law, by the Apostles themselves? (as in, in Acts they only advise a few observance of laws for gentiles)- us having Christ's teachings anyway - me being a dog, and the children being the Jews. (interpreted for no less than less of a chance )
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 05-25-2004 09:27 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-25-2004 10:16 AM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Dan Carroll, posted 05-25-2004 10:37 AM mike the wiz has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4960 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 11 of 314 (110383)
05-25-2004 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by mike the wiz
05-25-2004 10:12 AM


Sexist and Racist?
even the dogs eat the crumbs from the childrens table
I believe it is 'from their masters' table' Mike, a nice piece of racial prejudice from the New Testament. In Mark it is the children's crumbs, but it is still the masters' table. But this isn't a reference to sexual equality, it is about racial equality and it is an argument that altered Jesus' entire ministry.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by mike the wiz, posted 05-25-2004 10:12 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by mike the wiz, posted 05-25-2004 10:33 AM Brian has replied

mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 12 of 314 (110386)
05-25-2004 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Brian
05-25-2004 10:25 AM


Re: Sexist and Racist?
I don't see the scripture as prejudice or racist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Brian, posted 05-25-2004 10:25 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Dr Jack, posted 05-25-2004 10:40 AM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 05-25-2004 12:19 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 314 (110388)
05-25-2004 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by mike the wiz
05-25-2004 10:24 AM


Tell me, Dan - if I am christian, should I live as a goat herder, sojourning in the land of Israel and sacrificing sheep
Well, I can't see how it would hurt. But then, I can see a lot of potential benefits in sacrificing sheep.
should I adhere to him who saved me, me being a gentile, saved by grace, and not being asked to partake in the law, by the Apostles themselves?
How far, specifically, do you take this? I mean... I guess we can assume the Levitical laws are out... hell, most sects of Judaism don't even follow those. But are the Ten Commandments in? Can I adhere to Christ while freely coveting my neighbor's oxen?
How does one go about picking and choosing what parts of the Old Testament are appropriate? Why is treatment of women obsolete and not, say, carving a graven image?
me being a dog, and the children being the Jews.
*Dan the Jew-by-heritage proceeds to strut around smugly, and toss Mike the Dog a few crumbs of naturalism*

"He supposed that the intent of the Gospels was to teach people, among other things, to be merciful, even to the lowest of the low. But the Gospels actually taught this: Before you kill somebody, make absolutely sure he isn't well connected."
-Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by mike the wiz, posted 05-25-2004 10:24 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by mike the wiz, posted 05-25-2004 1:08 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 14 of 314 (110389)
05-25-2004 10:40 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by mike the wiz
05-25-2004 10:33 AM


Re: Sexist and Racist?
Really? I think the passage clearly describes the greeks as 'dogs'? However, I will admit it is rather vague. What is your interpretation then of Mark 7: 26-29?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by mike the wiz, posted 05-25-2004 10:33 AM mike the wiz has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 15 of 314 (110390)
05-25-2004 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by mike the wiz
05-25-2004 10:12 AM


quote:
Of course, what is noticeable, is that you miss the parts of the bible that promote equality. Jesus talked to and treated women equally, which matters a lot to a christian.
Oh, I certainly do believe that Jesus' teachings are very progressive, radically liberal and feminist for his time. I'm not being sarcastic, btw.
However, remember that it's buzsaw and others like him who do not think the bible or Jesus promote equality between the genders.
They believe that the bible says that men are superior to women, and that the most successful kind of marriage is one that has a male head and a subservient female.
My argument is not with you at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by mike the wiz, posted 05-25-2004 10:12 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Coragyps, posted 05-25-2004 12:07 PM nator has not replied
 Message 19 by mike the wiz, posted 05-25-2004 1:13 PM nator has not replied

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