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Author Topic:   Free will vs Omniscience
Kader
Member (Idle past 1135 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 1 of 559 (372568)
12-28-2006 1:13 PM


I don't understand how can we have free will if God is Omnipotent and Omniscient.

If someone shot you and you died a good christian.

First, God knew you would die. You also died for a reason. (God has a plan). So how can the guy that shot you had any choice but to shoot you ?

Basically did he had any free will ? If he did, how can you explain it ?

Edited by Kader, : title change


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2006 3:29 PM Kader has responded
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 Message 47 by Rob, posted 12-30-2006 12:37 AM Kader has not yet responded
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AdminNem
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 559 (372591)
12-28-2006 2:22 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11346
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 3 of 559 (372602)
12-28-2006 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Kader
12-28-2006 1:13 PM


Omnipotence trumps all

I don't understand how can we have free will if God is Omnipotent and Omniscient.

If God exists and is omnipotent then he is capable of anything, by definition. He is even capable of that which is logically impossible. He is even capable of allowing free will to coexist with his omniscience.

If you say that he is not capable of even one thing, us having free will while he is omniscient, then he isn't omnipotent but something very close to it although still not it. So, if God is omnipotent then the coexistance of our free will and his omniscience has to be at least possible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Kader, posted 12-28-2006 1:13 PM Kader has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Kader, posted 12-28-2006 4:05 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 5 by mick, posted 12-28-2006 4:08 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 389 by Phat, posted 04-20-2016 8:14 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
Kader
Member (Idle past 1135 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 4 of 559 (372611)
12-28-2006 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by New Cat's Eye
12-28-2006 3:29 PM


Re: Omnipotence trumps all
Or maybe simply that the bible and the tora and the qu'ran are wrong ?

Why dismiss that possibility ?


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 Message 3 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2006 3:29 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

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mick
Member (Idle past 2395 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 5 of 559 (372612)
12-28-2006 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by New Cat's Eye
12-28-2006 3:29 PM


God capable of logical impossibilities?
catholic scientist writes:

If God exists and is omnipotent then he is capable of anything, by definition. He is even capable of that which is logically impossible

If God is capable of things which are logically impossible, then we cn make any claim about him which we see fit.

We might say that he created the universe in six literal days and also that he created life over billions of years, and that he did not create life at all.

We might claim that he effected a global flood which wiped out all humans other than those on the ark, and also did not effect a global flood and did not wipe out all humans other than those on the ark.

We might claim that he created the mechanism of evolution to carry out his plan for life on earth, that he did not create the mechanism of evolution, and that he has no plan for life on earth.

Anything is possible for an omnipotent God, right?

More to the point, he might have created us with free will but the inability to choose to harm each other. If God is capable of logical impossibilities then he is capable of creating this kind of free will. The fact that he did not do so suggests that he is not a God of love, because he chose to introduce the capacity for violence into human beings (and being omniscient he knew well that this would ultimately result in Hitler's gas chambers). Of course, God might be both a God of love and simultaneously a God of evil, since he is capable of logical impossibilities...

Is this just some kind of generic get-out clause for Christians to make nonsensical claims about God?

Mick


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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11346
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 6 of 559 (372614)
12-28-2006 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Kader
12-28-2006 4:05 PM


Re: Omnipotence trumps all
Or maybe simply that the bible and the tora and the qu'ran are wrong ?
Why dismiss that possibility ?

I haven't.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Kader, posted 12-28-2006 4:05 PM Kader has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11346
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 7 of 559 (372617)
12-28-2006 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mick
12-28-2006 4:08 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
If God is capable of things which are logically impossible, then we cn make any claim about him which we see fit.

...

Anything is possible for an omnipotent God, right?

Right.

Is this just some kind of generic get-out clause for Christians to make nonsensical claims about God?

No, its an explanation for how free will can coexist with an omnipotent/omniscient god. You know, what was asked in the OP.

But I could certainly use it that way if you want me too.

More to the point, he might have created us with free will but the inability to choose to harm each other. If God is capable of logical impossibilities then he is capable of creating this kind of free will. The fact that he did not do so suggests that he is not a God of love, because he chose to introduce the capacity for violence into human beings (and being omniscient he knew well that this would ultimately result in Hitler's gas chambers).

But if he is omnipotent then, by definition, he could exist as a God of love while he created us with free will but the inability to choose to harm each other.

The fact that he did not do so suggests that he is not a God of love, because he chose to introduce the capacity for violence into human beings (and being omniscient he knew well that this would ultimately result in Hitler's gas chambers).

If you want to use that to argue that an omnipotent god is not capable of something then you're no longer arguing about an omnipotent god.

Omnipotence is rediculous.

Of course, God might be both a God of love and simultaneously a God of evil, since he is capable of logical impossibilities...

Exactly.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mick, posted 12-28-2006 4:08 PM mick has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by mick, posted 12-28-2006 4:43 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
mick
Member (Idle past 2395 days)
Posts: 913
Joined: 02-17-2005


Message 8 of 559 (372621)
12-28-2006 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by New Cat's Eye
12-28-2006 4:23 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
catholic scientist writes:

Omnipotence is rediculous.

If omnipotence is ridiculous because it entails logical impossibilites of the type outlined in the opening post, then does the existence of free will necessitate that God is impotent? (Granting for the sake of argument that free will and God both exist).

Just curious as to what you think.

Mick


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2006 4:23 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11346
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 9 of 559 (372623)
12-28-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by mick
12-28-2006 4:43 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
If omnipotence is ridiculous because it entails logical impossibilites of the type outlined in the opening post, then does the existence of free will necessitate that God is impotent?

Honestly I don't know. I'd have to go with a jar-like response to this one (sorry).

If god is omnipotent then he is omnipotent regardless of any logical conclusion we can come up with that he isn't.

I believe that god is omnipotent. One way I can look at it is that even if he is omnipotent, and has the capability of doing anything, wouldn't he also have the ability to elect to not use his ability. In that way he could maintain omnipotence and 'allow' us to have free will (like, just be sitting up there in all his power but not mettling in our affairs.) A semi-deist perspective I guess.

Personally, if one guy decides to shoot another while god is omnipotent, I don't think that means that god must have pulled the trigger. Just becuase he was capable doesn't mean he had to, especially is he wants to let us do the pulling.


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Replies to this message:
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Kader
Member (Idle past 1135 days)
Posts: 156
Joined: 12-20-2006


Message 10 of 559 (372628)
12-28-2006 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by New Cat's Eye
12-28-2006 5:23 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
Personally, if one guy decides to shoot another while god is omnipotent, I don't think that means that god must have pulled the trigger. Just becuase he was capable doesn't mean he had to, especially is he wants to let us do the pulling.

So if God didn't pull the trigger (throught the guy) then she wasn't meant to die. Because if she WAS meant to die, then God DID kill her.

And if she wasn't meant to die, they God failed her, and isn't omnipotent.

Or we can just say we cannot nuderstand God. And chose to believe blindly. Liek the people who believed in the God of fire and season. Exactly like them.


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sidelined 
Inactive Suspended Member


Message 11 of 559 (372631)
12-28-2006 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by New Cat's Eye
12-28-2006 5:23 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
Catholic Scientist

I believe that god is omnipotent.

Can God be both Omnipotent and not Omnipotent at the same time in logical contradiction?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2006 5:23 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11346
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 12 of 559 (372657)
12-28-2006 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by sidelined
12-28-2006 5:56 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
Can God be both Omnipotent and not Omnipotent at the same time in logical contradiction?

why not?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by sidelined, posted 12-28-2006 5:56 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by nator, posted 12-28-2006 10:02 PM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 15 by VerifyMe, posted 12-29-2006 1:15 AM New Cat's Eye has responded
 Message 18 by sidelined, posted 12-29-2006 2:29 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2051 days)
Posts: 12961
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 13 of 559 (372660)
12-28-2006 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
12-28-2006 9:56 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
So, what you seem to be saying is that God is logically-impossible.

Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2006 9:56 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11346
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 14 of 559 (372661)
12-28-2006 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by nator
12-28-2006 10:02 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
So, what you seem to be saying is that God is logically-impossible.

An omnipotent god could logically be both possible and impossible.


This message is a reply to:
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VerifyMe
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 559 (372682)
12-29-2006 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by New Cat's Eye
12-28-2006 9:56 PM


Re: God capable of logical impossibilities?
Could God create a rock so heavy that even he could not move it?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-28-2006 9:56 PM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
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