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Author Topic:   Fulfilled Prophecy
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 303 (373808)
01-02-2007 7:37 PM


In the "Ancient ice shelf breaks free in Arctic - Signs of the end?"
I noted corroborating prophecies to bolster Lysimachus's suggestion that the ice melt was a sign of the latter days predicted by Jesus and the prophets of the Bible. I was challenged by some to substantiate my claims of corroborating fulfilled prophecies as evidence of the credence of the Biblical account.

So lets in this thread discuss some of those prophecies. We'll begin with the prophecies implying the emergence in the latter days of the industrial revolution.

1. Travel will increase. Of course, the horse was the fast road for humans for all the milleniums until the emergence of the industrial revolution. Prophecies implying increase of and faster travel:

Daniel 12:4 (about 530BC) Daniel says: "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
Item: increase of knowledge and travel.

Fast chariots/wheeled vehicles, auto wrecks, torches equate combustion, et al. Nah. 2:3, 4 --"The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men are in scarlet: the chariots shall be with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken. The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings."

link writes:

In 1927 in Signs of the Times, John Lewis Shuler wrote: "Sir Isaac Newton made a most daring forecast two hundred years ago regarding a future development in rapid transit, which at that time seemed absolutely beyond the possibility of ever seeing realization. Newton declared that he was convinced from a study of Bible prophecy that there was destined to be a marvelous increase in the speed of transportation on the earth.

“‘I believe,’ Newton said, ‘that in the providence of God, though the method now be entirely hidden, men will yet travel on the earth at the rate of fifty miles an hour.’ Newton lived from 1642-1727. In his day the most rapid travel by land was by horse. Stagecoaches drawn about eight miles an hour by horses held the record on land."

I imagine that many would have thought that Newton was crazy when he based such a wild prophecy for his day on what he had read in the Bible. He was certainly right, even if he grossly underestimated the speed at which people would travel in the future. Imagine if he could have seen our day when thousands of people are flying daily across the world at speeds more like 500 mph., not to mention the incredible speed that astronauts travel when circling the earth and/or fly to the moon.


www.actsweb.org/articles/article.php?i=1381&d=2&c=2

Computer tech and cashless money and TV et al:
Revelation 13:14 to 17

Rev writes:

14And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by reason of the signs which it was given him to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast who hath the stroke of the sword and lived. 15And it was given unto him to give breath to it, even to the image to the breast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as should not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead; 17and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, even the name of the beast or the number of his name.

The below cited scriptural prophecy also implies world government where all nations are imposed upon by the events cited.

Revelation 13:7-10 writes:

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and apower was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the abook of life of the bLamb slain from the cfoundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that akilleth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the bpatience and the faith of the csaints.

There are other scriptural prophecies implying world government.

There are scores of prophecies in the OT and others in the NT indicating Israels rebirth as as nation in the latter days, including the Olivet Discourse in Luke 21.

These are starters. Other members may cite other examples in this thread. It's open to discussion on the prophecies in general.

Biblical Accuracy and Inerrancy please.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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AdminPhat
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Posts: 1878
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-03-2004


Message 2 of 303 (373866)
01-02-2007 11:55 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
jar
Member
Posts: 30920
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 3 of 303 (373870)
01-03-2007 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
01-02-2007 7:37 PM


Not Prophecy but rather Nonsense.
buz writes:

Computer tech and cashless money and TV et al:
Revelation 13:14 to 17

14And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by reason of the signs which it was given him to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast who hath the stroke of the sword and lived. 15And it was given unto him to give breath to it, even to the image to the breast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as should not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead; 17and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, even the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Let's just look at this bunch of total nonsense. Buz claims that it is a prophecy of "Computer tech and cashless money and TV et al:".

Please point out in the section he quoted where it implies any of those things?

NOTHING to do with cash.

NOTHING to do with TV.

NOTHING to do with Computer Tech.

This is classic Prophetic Bullshit. No where does it say anything about a cash less society or anything related to cash, nothing about computers or computer tech, nothing about tv.

This is the kind of absolute irrelevant fantasies brought up by the End Time Crazies and should just be laughed at.

It is embarrassing that a Christian would post something that makes Christians look so stupid.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1216 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 4 of 303 (373874)
01-03-2007 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
01-03-2007 12:07 AM


Re: Not Prophecy but rather Nonsense.
Jar, I really need to point out something. If anything, we should lay the blame on the writing style of the past. In this day and age, we communicate with each other directly without beating around the bushes.

For example, if I have a premonition of an airplane crashing into a scyscrapper, I'm going to tell you that jar, I just had a premonition of an airplane crashing into a big tall building.

But if I am to communicate what I have seen in the old fashion way, I would say jar, while in my dream-like state, I saw a great beast hovering over a great city and bestowed great pain on the people in a great palace. I heard thundering noise and cries of great pain of which this beast hath brought down upon people.

I have no idea why people of the past (or even present day prophets) communicate in such obscure manner. The second way I could have told you about the premonition could be interpreted as a comet, meteor, missile, etc. Why not just say I saw a plane crashing into a building?

Beside, you have to understand that people of the past, when presented with images of the future, did not necessarily understand what they saw. Because of that, they couldn't tell us exactly what they saw in the manner that we could understand (credit cards, computers, ect.). They could only do the next best thing, write the most obscure poem they could possibly conjure up and let future generations take wild guesses to interpret their meanings.


AKA G.A.S.B.Y.

George Absolutely Stupid Bush the Younger


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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3840 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 5 of 303 (373878)
01-03-2007 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
01-02-2007 7:37 PM


Standard of Specificity
There needs to be some standard of specificity for prophecy.

This is not even weak but simply ludicrous.

buz writes:

1. Travel will increase. Of course, the horse was the fast road for humans for all the milleniums until the emergence of the industrial revolution. Prophecies implying increase of and faster travel:

Daniel 12:4 (about 530BC) Daniel says: "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
Item: increase of knowledge and travel.

The allegedly prophetic content here is:

  • "Many shall run to and fro". Oh come on ... I would not even put this in the weak to very weak category.

  • "and knowledge shall be increased". Now that is right up there with Pat Robertson. Knowledge has increased since the advent of written languages... Duh.

    Continuing on in awe and amazement....

    Nah. 2:3 writes:

    The shield of his mighty men is made red, the valiant men are in scarlet: the chariots shall be with flaming torches in the day of his preparation, and the fir trees shall be terribly shaken. The chariots shall rage in the streets, they shall justle one against another in the broad ways: they shall seem like torches, they shall run like the lightnings.

    Battle dress in ancient days was often red. The Spartan wore red tunics and so did the Romans. Big deal. The remainder is some poetic excesses that you are stretching to point of absurdity.

    "flaming torches" while other translations such as ASV use the following language "the chariots flash with steel".

    This is just picturesque language.

    I could dig into the any ancient literature and find just as "remarkable" prophecies.

    Let's see.

    Virgils Aeneid writes:


    Thus they pretend, but in the hollow side
    Selected numbers of their soldiers hide:
    With inward arms the dire machine they load,
    And iron bowels stuff the dark abode.

    Clearly this foretold of a particular style of computer virus that masquerades as a useful or attractive application while hiding a insidious sinister purpose deep within the "bowels".

    Or the Spartan aerodynamic inverted V battle dress symbol prophesied future rocket based weapons.


    This message is a reply to:
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  • arachnophilia
    Member
    Posts: 9069
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 6 of 303 (373880)
    01-03-2007 1:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
    01-03-2007 12:38 AM


    Re: Not Prophecy but rather Nonsense.
    But if I am to communicate what I have seen in the old fashion way, I would say jar, while in my dream-like state, I saw a great beast hovering over a great city and bestowed great pain on the people in a great palace. I heard thundering noise and cries of great pain of which this beast hath brought down upon people.

    clearly not, as anyone who's read genesis will be able to tell you. as you may recall, in that book (which is at least 2,600 years old), joseph delivers several very specific prophecies to the pharaoh of egypt. the prophecies themselves were delivered in metaphorical imagery to someone who had no idea what they meant, but the prophet deciphered them into concrete terms.

    I have no idea why people of the past (or even present day prophets) communicate in such obscure manner.

    so that their prophecies may be confirmed by people willing to read anything into them. one only needs to read the horoscopes for a few weeks to understand this. it's amazing how the astrologers know so much about your life, right? well think of how many people are reading the same horoscope and thinking the same thing.

    Beside, you have to understand that people of the past, when presented with images of the future, did not necessarily understand what they saw. Because of that, they couldn't tell us exactly what they saw in the manner that we could understand (credit cards, computers, ect.). They could only do the next best thing, write the most obscure poem they could possibly conjure up and let future generations take wild guesses to interpret their meanings.

    this is two steps away from a former member who asserted that there was biblical evidence of time-travel and cd-rom's, based on similar logic.


    אָרַח

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    arachnophilia
    Member
    Posts: 9069
    From: god's waiting room
    Joined: 05-21-2004


    Message 7 of 303 (373881)
    01-03-2007 1:09 AM
    Reply to: Message 5 by iceage
    01-03-2007 12:55 AM


    Re: Standard of Specificity
    Clearly this foretold of a particular style of computer virus that masquerades as a useful or attractive application while hiding a insidious sinister purpose deep within the "bowels".

    Or the Spartan aerodynamic inverted V battle dress symbol prophesied future rocket based weapons.

    oh no, this is a very special kind of fallacy, pre-hoc propter-hoc. it's like post-hoc, only in reverse.

    the issue here is that we can actually establish that the first event influenced the second. trojan virus are indeed named for the trojan horse and, and spartan rockets are indeed named for the spartans. we can't say that for the "prophecies." and best we have coincidence, and at worst we have outright lunacy.

    Edited by arachnophilia, : No reason given.


    אָרַח

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    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3840 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 8 of 303 (373882)
    01-03-2007 1:13 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
    01-03-2007 12:38 AM


    Re: Not Prophecy but rather Nonsense.
    taz writes:

    I have no idea why people of the past (or even present day prophets) communicate in such obscure manner.

    That is simple. The number 1 rule in successful prophecy is to be obscure. The more specific you are the more likely you will be wrong.

    The number 2 rule in successful prophecy - Never but never but a near future time frame on it.


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    Archer Opteryx
    Member (Idle past 1523 days)
    Posts: 1811
    From: East Asia
    Joined: 08-16-2006


    Message 9 of 303 (373886)
    01-03-2007 1:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
    01-03-2007 12:38 AM


    Literal Minds in Wonderland
    gasby:

    If anything, we should lay the blame on the writing style of the past. In this day and age, we communicate with each other directly without beating around the bushes.

    It's not a past-present thing so much. Surrealism has always been with us, and so have literal mindsets. I'd flip this. The blame lies with the mentality that seeks linear meanings in complex symbols.

    Surrealism has its value. Alice in Wonderland is an evocative, fascinating book. One can find new meanings (and amusement) in its images throughout one's life. But it is not the book to consult if you're in a car trying to navigate the UK. One can't get to Glasgow from Sussex by driving your car down a rabbit hole.

    One can say 'Oh, I know the rabbit hole is not literal. I'm not that naive. I understand the rabbit hole is a symbol. It is necessary for me to interpret the rabbit hole correctly so I will understand what highway it means for me to take.'

    Playing that game is not likely to get one to Glasgow in short order, either. One is better off throwing Wonderland in the back seat for a while and consulting a map.

    Surrealism is complex by nature. It deals in multilayered symbols that speak to the unconscious mind at least as much as the consicous mind. Its symbols represent whole constellations of things. Surrealist art is not code of the linear '1 = A, 2 = B' sort.

    But maps are. Maps are simple. They are meant to be read in linear fashion: this graphic equals a two-lane highway, this one a four-lane highway, this color a toll road. 1 = A, 2 = B, item for item. Code.

    Reading a complex work as a linear one guarantees that the interpreter will miss the destination before pulling away from the curb.

    The complexity of symbols is an important reason why surrealist works fascinate people so much. It's why highly symbolic forms of expression retain power long after a map issued on the same date becomes obsolete. But it's also why linear interpreters can churn out one idea after another over generations. Countless layers can fuel countless simplistic interpretations.

    This also explains why would-be prophecy interpreters are so bad at actually predicting anything... but so very good at coming along after an event and pointing to a passage and saying 'See--this was all foretold!'

    ____


    Archer

    All species are transitional.


    This message is a reply to:
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    iceage 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3840 days)
    Posts: 1024
    From: Pacific Northwest
    Joined: 09-08-2003


    Message 10 of 303 (373893)
    01-03-2007 2:16 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
    01-02-2007 7:37 PM


    Sir Isaac Newton Quote
    Just for grins I did a little digging into one of your references. The alleged quote of Sir Isaac sounded a little funny.

    Allegedly Sir Isaac writes:

    'I believe, that in the providence of God, though the method now be entirely hidden, men will yet travel on the earth at the rate of fifty miles an hour.

    First I notice the alleged quote is second hand. Some fellow John Lewis Shuler is quoting Sir Isaac Newton. But I cannot find any other reference or even the direct source of the quote. Hmmmm sound even a little more funny.

    Further I could find very little John Lewis Shuler let alone "Signs of the Times". Perhaps it was a pamphlet, however not a reliable reference.

    Buz do you have a direct source for your Sir Isaac Newton quote?

    Even further Lewis Shuler takes some liberty with the alleged quote and adds a bit of additional information.

    John Lewis Shuler writes:

    Newton declared that he was convinced from a study of Bible prophecy that there was destined to be a marvelous increase in the speed of transportation on the earth.

    The statement that Newton arrived at this declaration based on the biblical prophecy is not support by the alleged Newton quote.

    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


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    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 14419
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 1.7


    Message 11 of 303 (373894)
    01-03-2007 2:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
    01-02-2007 7:37 PM


    Buz comes up empty again.
    quote:

    1. Travel will increase. Of course, the horse was the fast road for humans for all the milleniums until the emergence of the industrial revolution. Prophecies implying increase of and faster travel:

    Daniel 12:4 (about 530BC) Daniel says: "But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."
    Item: increase of knowledge and travel.


    I don't know about you but when I "run" I do so on foot. Nobody tuns while mounted on a horse or in a car. To which we can add the fact that Daniel was written about the time of the Maccabean revolt (he middle of the 2nd century BC - not the 6th) and is about that period (read Daniel 11 in the light of the history of that period). The reference to "sealing" the book is part off an explanation as to why the book of Daniel was not known until that time - thus the time it became known - "unsealed" must be the "end time".

    So it is definitely NOT about the Industrial revolution which did not occur until centuries later. Nor does it refer to the major points of that perod - the growth of manufacturing industry or the use of steam power. (Even if it did, just how long is the "End Time" supposed to be going on for ? The Industrial Revolution started more than 200 years ago !)

    Nahum is about the destruction of Nineveh (see Nahum 2:8) ! Again it is obviously not about the Industrial Revolution, but events long past when the Industrial Revolution occurred. (A quick check suggests 612 BC as the date !)

    The references to Revelation are even worse. Computer tech ? Not mentioned at all. TV ? Not mentioned at all. Cashless money ? Not mentioned at all.

    The only thing on the list that could be even implied is a "world government" - but there is no real sign of that coming true in the forseeable future.

    So, we have a complete failure on all the examples produced. Not one is supported. All rely on misrepresenting the Bible. I can only conclude that Buz simply doesn't care what the Bible really says - nobody who does could honestly have used a single one of these examples.


    This message is a reply to:
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    Nighttrain
    Member (Idle past 1919 days)
    Posts: 1512
    From: brisbane,australia
    Joined: 06-08-2004


    Message 12 of 303 (373897)
    01-03-2007 2:48 AM
    Reply to: Message 5 by iceage
    01-03-2007 12:55 AM


    Re: Standard of Specificity
    Virgils Aeneid writes:

    Thus they pretend, but in the hollow side
    Selected numbers of their soldiers hide:
    With inward arms the dire machine they load,
    And iron bowels stuff the dark abode.

    Actually, IA, I was sure Virgil was forecasting submarines. :D


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    crashfrog
    Inactive Member


    Message 13 of 303 (373979)
    01-03-2007 11:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
    01-02-2007 7:37 PM


    The below cited scriptural prophecy also implies world government where all nations are imposed upon by the events cited.

    How does a prophecy of something that has never, ever happened constitute support for fulfilled prophecy in the Bible?

    16And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead; 17and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, even the name of the beast or the number of his name.

    I went out and bought some groceries the other day. I didn't use cash, but neither did I use a "mark" on either my hand nor my forehead.

    And the idea of buying and selling without coin, using only marks in a book (a ledger), was an accounting technique already in widespread practice by Biblical times. A "prophecy" that predicts things that had already come to pass at the time that it was written is no prophecy at all.

    Neither is a prophecy that predicts events that have never happened, like a unified world government.


    This message is a reply to:
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    Buzsaw
    Inactive Member


    Message 14 of 303 (374168)
    01-03-2007 7:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 3 by jar
    01-03-2007 12:07 AM


    Re: Not Prophecy but rather Nonsense.
    jar writes:

    NOTHING to do with cash.

    NOTHING to do with TV.

    NOTHING to do with Computer Tech.

    ......... No where does it say anything about a cash less society or anything related to cash, nothing about computers or computer tech, nothing about tv.

    This is the kind of absolute irrelevant fantasies brought up by the End Time Crazies and should just be laughed at.

    It is embarrassing that a Christian would post something that makes Christians look so stupid.

    Jar, to begin with cut the personal stuff and stick to refuting if that's what you intend to do. If you persist in this, moderation may be called for.

    1. I didn't say cash less. I said cashless, just as the prophecy implies. The global monetary systems are continuously becoming more cashless and computerized with numbers and marks, et all. You cannot deny that. It is also becoming more essential to produce your social security number in order to buy and sell, cash or no cash. Here in NY you can't get a tax resale permit without the number and in fact the number becomes your resale certificate number. If you sell as a merchant, you need the number to account to the government for the tax you owe on it, et al.

    2. TV is also implied. It is indeed a speaking image. So is your computer. There is an ever increasing electronic economy with buying and selling on the internet. This also requires a credit card with numbers on it et al.
    I failed to mention also regarding TV that there are at least three scriptures which clearly imply TV and other electronic image/speaking media. These are Revelation 11:8-12 where the peoples of the nations view the dead bodies of two men at one location. Revelation 18:9-18 depicts the kings/rulers of the earth and the shipmasters far off viewing the smoke of the city, mystery Babylon which is destroyed in one hour, implying both electronic media/speaking image and explosives which can destroy a city in one hour. The third is that all will see Jesus coming in the clouds when he comes. All three of these were impossible until after the industrial revolution and the emergence of TV and other electronic media.

    3. I failed also to mention that the ten horned beast of Revelation 13 is interpreted as global kings/rulers who rule as kings, implying great authority in Revelation 17 and in similar wording in Daniel 7.

    4. These events are all clearly designated by scripture as to be fulfilled in the latter days of the earth before the 2nd advent of Christ Jesus.

    5. These corroborate other end time prophecies such as the ones in Daniel and global warming prophecies. These are also themselves corroborated by other prophecies such as global warming, return of Jews, et al. So it's not one or two isolated prophecies we're talking. It's a whole lot of them corroborating each another.

    6. If you do your homework on the prophecies, correlating scripture with scripture et al, they do indeed make sense. You're the novice trying to tell the one who's done the homework that they're nonsense. That's like an elementary student trying to tell a PHD in math his stuff is nonsense.


    BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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    sidelined
    Inactive Member


    Message 15 of 303 (374170)
    01-03-2007 7:56 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
    01-02-2007 7:37 PM


    Buzzsaw

    In the thread that originated this discussion I had a question for Lysimachus that went as follows.

    [qs]Lysimachus

    In post #1 ,in reference to the ice flow that broke free

    Now in a different post in response to criticism you back off to this position

    {italics mine}

    This is common with doom sayers and end time predictions. They are vague at best and the wording such that they can back off of any assertion they make by stating that they never said it would happen but only could.
    For once in your miserable doom saying lives put forth a prediction with some meat on it will you? Time and date to within a day, location and specifics sufficient to show that the event is spot on with the prediction.People involved and their contribution. before the fact revealing of information that does not come out till a thorough investigation is done.

    You would think that those who communicate with God would have a better grip on specifics eh?

    So I will pose this question to you as well. Why are prophesies so vague and of questionable quality and not spot on and precise?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 01-02-2007 7:37 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 94 by Quetzal, posted 01-06-2007 5:07 PM sidelined has not yet responded

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