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Author Topic:   Can God lie?
xBobTheAlienx
Inactive Junior Member


Message 1 of 79 (99337)
04-11-2004 10:29 PM


Mark 14:36 And He said, "Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will."

Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as
the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Omnipotent: Able in every respect and for every work; unlimited in ability; all-powerful; almighty ((Webster's))

Tts 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Hmmm........ which of these is right? can He or can He not lie?


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Brian
Member (Idle past 2400 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 2 of 79 (99354)
04-12-2004 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by xBobTheAlienx
04-11-2004 10:29 PM


God lied to poor Ahab:

1 Kings 22:22-23 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

Of course, some people would say that God had every right to lie to Ahab, but it was still a lie.

Brian


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 488 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 3 of 79 (99405)
04-12-2004 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by xBobTheAlienx
04-11-2004 10:29 PM


Why would God create a source (the Bible) that portrays Himself as a liar ?

If the claim is true that the Bible is the word of God then anything written therein that is interpreted to say God is lying would be ridiculous.

If the claim is untrue (Bible not the word of God) then anyone cannot use the claim momentarily to accuse God of lying.

The passage of scripture concerning Ahab is a chilling revelation revealing that IF you persist in rebellion (in Ahab's case idol worship) He can make you believe something that is not true for the purpose of getting you killed.

[This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 04-12-2004]


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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 79 (99408)
04-12-2004 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Cold Foreign Object
04-12-2004 12:18 PM


Willowtree, deception is most defintely a form of lying. So, if you piss of the supposed almighty, its ok for him to lie to you and lead you astray, even unto death. Seems like a particularly ugly form of lying to me. Isn't that supposed to be the job of satan? Just curious.
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xBobTheAlienx
Inactive Junior Member


Message 5 of 79 (99428)
04-12-2004 1:21 PM


WILLOWTREE:

First let me start by saying I named this thread incorrectly. It really has nothing to do with the quesiton of whether or not God can lie; I am merely pointing out a blatant contradiction in the Scriptures.

Second, the point of pointing out contradictions is to show that the Bible is no the Word of God. You are right; God would not write a book which contradicts itself and shows Him to be a liar. Think about it: if He cannot write a book that doesnt contradict itself, how can He make a universe?

Again, sorry about the incorrect name for the thread; this is about contradcitions, not lying. My bad.


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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4566
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 6 of 79 (99440)
04-12-2004 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by xBobTheAlienx
04-12-2004 1:21 PM


If only I could find a contradiction in the bible, or even in the O.P. Usually I find there are no contradictions, just un-Theologicaly assumed contradictions. In a book filled with parables poetic words and truths you might automatically see a contradiction with your unbelief.

[This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-12-2004]


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xBobTheAlienx
Inactive Junior Member


Message 7 of 79 (99463)
04-12-2004 3:50 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by mike the wiz
04-12-2004 2:10 PM


mike, if you would have read the first message of this thread, you would see a contradiction. If you choose to ignore that one, here are a few more:

24,000 / 23,000 died in plague.
Num 25:9 / 1 Cor 10:8

David took 700 / 7000 horsemen.
2 Sam 8:4 / 1 Chron 18:4

All / not all cattle, horses died.
Ex 9:3,6 / Ex 14:9

Penalty for David's sin was seven / three years famine.
2 Sam 24:13 / 1 Chron 21:11,12

Now, can you honestly say there are no contradictions in the Bible?


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 488 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 8 of 79 (99486)
04-12-2004 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Darwin Storm
04-12-2004 12:24 PM


Satan already did his job of getting Ahab to worship idols. God eventually reacts and in the text in question we learn about ONE of God's ways : His wrath.

What is depicted and suggested in this passage is consistent with other passages.


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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 488 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 9 of 79 (99515)
04-12-2004 8:51 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by xBobTheAlienx
04-12-2004 1:21 PM


xBobTheAlienx quote :
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Think about it: if He cannot write a book that doesnt contradict itself, how can He make a universe?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

IF there be contradictions then I would agree that this is evidence supporting your claim that He did not create the universe. Notice I said "evidence", how much weight to give the evidence is another subject.

When God possesses His word I claim that it is inerrant and without contradiction. When He transfers that word to a chosen vessel for recording it instantly has the potential to become errant/contradictory.

The various versions and translations of Scripture certainly do appear to have contradictions, yet, upon strenuous study these errors can satisfactorily be explained/refuted.

The discovery of the truth as presented in the Bible takes just as much effort and brains as the discovery of truth via science.

Bob : Would you re-explain the alleged contradiction cited in post # 1 - I do not understand.


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Itachi Uchiha
Member (Idle past 3056 days)
Posts: 272
From: mayaguez, Puerto RIco
Joined: 06-21-2003


Message 10 of 79 (99518)
04-12-2004 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Darwin Storm
04-12-2004 12:24 PM


Darwin Storm writes:

deception is most defintely a form of lying. So, if you piss of the supposed almighty, its ok for him to lie to you and lead you astray, even unto death. Seems like a particularly ugly form of lying to me. Isn't that supposed to be the job of satan? Just curious.

.

Ahab always knew what was right he only persisted in doing what was wrong so God made him give himself into his sin and got punished fr it. I dont have a bible here with me but paul said in one of his letters that the truth(jesus) was given by God to the people but the people DID NOT WANT TO BELIEVE THE TRUTH. In return God allowed them to sink even more in their own sins and I bet you know what the punishment is. (Hint:what is the fruit of rebelion?)


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NotAHero
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 79 (99609)
04-13-2004 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by xBobTheAlienx
04-12-2004 3:50 PM


Bob

700/7000 horsemen is viewed by nearly everyone as a copyist error, not a contradiction.

David's sin penalty of 7 years is also abundantly agreed on to be a copyist error because the rest of the 2 verses are in complete accordance with one another.

The hebrew word used in Exodus 9:6 is meant specifically for livestock and therefore does not include the horses used for the horsemen of the chariots. Therefore, not a contradiction because all the livestock were killed.

The plague referred to in 1 Corin. 10:8 is not the same plague as the one in Numbers 25:9. Paul quotes Exodus 32 just prior to giving the number as 23,000 which is a completely different plague than the one in Numbers 25:9 as punishment for those joined to Baal. Therefore, not a contradiction.


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 79 (99612)
04-13-2004 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by NotAHero
04-13-2004 4:35 AM


700/7000 horsemen is viewed by nearly everyone as a copyist error, not a contradiction.

How could a copyist error have been permitted in the Lord's Holy Book?


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funkman
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 79 (99648)
04-13-2004 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by crashfrog
04-13-2004 5:07 AM


How could a copyist error have been permitted in the Lord's Holy Book?

You must remember, crash, that the Bible is only inerrant and infallible in the original Hebrew and Greek in which it was written. Copy errors and loose translations are around because of the infallibility of man, not because God made a mistake when He inspired the men who wrote it.


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Brian
Member (Idle past 2400 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 14 of 79 (99666)
04-13-2004 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by funkman
04-13-2004 10:37 AM


Hi Funk,

You must remember, crash, that the Bible is only inerrant and infallible in the original Hebrew and Greek in which it was written.

This is surely taken on faith and cannot be demonstrated as there is not a single extant original bible text. For all we know the ones we have now may be more harmonious than the originals

Also, the 700 or 7000 is technically a contradiction, it may be a copyist error but the two verses contradict each other. It is quite difficult to miscopy Hebrew numbers given that they have no numeral for 'zero'.

Brian


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Brian
Member (Idle past 2400 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 15 of 79 (99689)
04-13-2004 1:27 PM


When is a lie not a lie?
Anyway, no matter how you dress it up and try to validate it, a lie is a lie, regardless of the reason, simple as that.

Even when God Himself admits that he sent a lying spirit, you people still try to twist it to fit your preconceptions, it doesn't really matter what the texts says does it, we can always find an interpretation to cover it up LOL. Amazing.

So can I ask the inerrantist crew here, to answer the following question with a yes or a no:

Did God lie to Ahab?

No 'yes becauses', or 'Yes buts', a yes or no will do.

Cheers.

Brian.


    
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