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Author Topic:   Eternal and Forever: Unending or Just a Very Long Time?
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 1 of 26 (316085)
05-29-2006 7:50 PM


I would like to take an analytical look at the meanings of the Hebrew word "olam" and the Greek word "aion/aionios" and whether they were actually used by the authors in the Bible to mean "without end" at the time they were written and in the context of their individual books.
The article entitled "Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation made an interesting presentation that the words translated as "forever and ever" don't really present the meaning of "without end."
So can a word that means an age which has an end:
1 Corinthians 10:11
Now these things happened to them as an example , and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
also be used to mean a time without end?
Revelation 22:5
And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever.
Also in this article entitled Olam/Aion/Aionian/Aionias (by Mike Burke), Burke and others suggest that the usage of olam/aionios may deal more with quality than duration.
This verse gives the impression of quality and not unending.
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:15.)
I don't read Hebrew or Greek, so any help in that department is greatly appreciated. I realize that given the various styles of writing in the Bible and the large expanse of time, it is unreasonable to assume that words weren't used creatively or that the meanings couldn't have changed over time.
I look forward to learning something new.
This discussion is not about faith or belief.
It is analytical look at the words that are translated as eternal and forever.
Edited by purpledawn, : Reworked OP

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 05-29-2006 11:29 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 7 by Phat, posted 05-30-2006 7:26 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 10 by jaywill, posted 05-31-2006 5:03 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 12 by arachnophilia, posted 05-31-2006 9:28 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 26 by w_fortenberry, posted 07-06-2006 8:49 PM purpledawn has not replied

  
AdminBuzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 26 (316123)
05-29-2006 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
05-29-2006 7:50 PM


Looking over the forums and noting that you do relate this to the Bible, PD, Faith and Belief looks to me to be the most appropriate forum for this. What forum did you have in mind?
Once we figure this out, I will be happy to promote this topic. Do you think you need all this material in you OP, or could some of it be interjected later? If you think it would be necessary, I will promote it as stated. I believe the concensus is to keep the OP as concise and to the point as possible.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 3 of 26 (316192)
05-30-2006 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminBuzsaw
05-29-2006 11:29 PM


Reworked OP
I reworked the OP.
Bible Study or The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy would be appropriate forums.
This is not a faith or belief discussion.
Thanks

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminBuzsaw, posted 05-29-2006 11:29 PM AdminBuzsaw has replied

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AdminBuzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 26 (316357)
05-30-2006 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by purpledawn
05-30-2006 7:00 AM


Re: Reworked OP
Thanks PD. I'll be happy to promote your topic. My apologies for the delay. As a matter of fact I forgot to finish my job.

This message is a reply to:
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AdminBuzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 26 (316362)
05-30-2006 5:38 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
Hang in there. I missed a step and am fixing it.
Edited by AdminBuzsaw, : No reason given.

  
AdminBuzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 26 (316364)
05-30-2006 5:49 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 7 of 26 (316382)
05-30-2006 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
05-29-2006 7:50 PM


Here is another one to add to this discussion, PD.
Matt 24:14--And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
END, ENDING
2. sunteleia NT:4930 signifies "a bringing to completion together" (sun "with," teleo, "to complete," akin to No. 1), marking the "completion" or consummation of the various parts of a scheme. In Matt 13:39-40,49; 24:3; 28:20, the rendering "the end of the world" (KJV and RV, text) is misleading; the RV marg., "the consummation of the age," is correct. The word does not denote a termination, but the heading up of events to the appointed climax. Aion is not the world, but a period or epoch or era in which events take place. In Heb 9:26, the word translated "world" (KJV) is in the plural, and the phrase is "the consummation of the ages." It was at the heading up of all the various epochs appointed by divine counsels that Christ was manifested (i. e., in His Incarnation) "to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself."
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
Perhaps forever merely means the consummation of an age. It all boils down to that one moment in time when we are like God or the Beast: We either were, are, and always will be....or we once were, now are not.
Kinda like a judgement and summation of sorts. (But I'm straying into Faith/Belief. I'll stop. )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by purpledawn, posted 05-29-2006 7:50 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 26 (316426)
05-30-2006 10:45 PM


I do know that the English language, having between 600,000 and 700,000 words in it, is very wordy, having far more words in it than the Hebrew. The Greek may also have less words in it than the English. This being the case, these languages, especially the Hebrew requires a thorough and thoughtful reading of the context in order to determine what a given word means, since fewer words are available to express what one is intending to convey. Of course this is true to a greater or lesser extent in all languages.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 9 of 26 (316520)
05-31-2006 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Phat
05-30-2006 7:26 PM


Aion and Aionios in Matthew
quote:
Perhaps forever merely means the consummation of an age.
I would say that aion means age, which does have an end. We just don't know when that is.
I'm using Crosswalk.com with the NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon to search for verses and meanings.
These are the verses in Matthew that use the noun form of "aion". None of them are translated as forever. They speak of the current age (world) or the end of the age. So the verse you shared would reasonably be the end of the age and not the physical world. The author's audience probably understood it that way.
Mt 12:32 "And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come.
Mt 13:22 "And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
Mt 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
Mt 13:40 "Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Mt 13:49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels shall come forth, and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
Mt 24:3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
Mt 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
Even in our own usage of our word forever we don't necessarily mean unending. We use it to emphasize a very very long period of time with no specified end. We exaggerate for effect.
Then we have the noun, "aion", used as an adjective, "aionios", which is translated as eternal in Matthew. We have eternal fire, eternal life, and eternal punishment.
Mt 18:8 "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire.
Mt 19:16 And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?"
Mt 19:29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, shall receive many times as much, and shall inherit eternal life.
Mt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
Mt 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
So if we want to avoid using a noun as an adjective the the phrase "eternal God" would be written God of the age(s) as shown in the article mentioned in Message 1.
There is no doubt that God has always existed, but the statement at Romans 16:26 speaks of Him as an eonian God. The Scriptures say He made the eons, so He existed before they were made, and He will exist after the eons have been concluded (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26). He is endless. To argue that "eonian God" makes the "eonian" unlimited time because God is unlimited is illogical. Isaiah 54:5, KJV, calls Him "the God of the whole earth." This does not preclude Him from also being the God of the entire universe. In the context of Romans 16:26, He is called the "eonian God," but He was God before the eons were made; He is God during all the eons, and in post-eonian times. In other words, just because the Scriptures refer to Him as the "God of the ages" does not preclude Him from being the God of eternity. The Scriptures declare Him the "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," and "the God of Israel." Does that mean He cannot therefore be the God of the gentiles, of the whole universe? Of course not!
So if we do the same thing to eternal fire we have fire of the age(s), eternal life we have life of the age(s), and eternal punishment we have punishment of the age(s).
So then the question is, how does this impact how we understand the verses?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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jaywill
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 10 of 26 (316666)
05-31-2006 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
05-29-2006 7:50 PM


1 Corinthians 10:11
Now these things happened to them as an example , and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
The KJV translators translated Eph 3:21 as:
"world without end" (Eph 3:21 KJV)

This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 11 of 26 (316709)
05-31-2006 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by jaywill
05-31-2006 5:03 PM


Forever and Ever
Ephesians 3:21 is one of the verses brought up in the article I mentioned in Message 1 entitled "Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation.
If a better translation is "the age of ages" then the KJV translation is rather misleading considering the similar expressions used in the Bible.
Similar expressions used in the Scriptures are cited in order to illustrate the meaning: Song of Solomon 1:1, "song of songs;" Eccl. 12:8, "vanity of vanities;" Gen 9:25, "servant of servants;" Ex. 26:33, "holy of the holies;" Deut. 10:17, "God of gods and Lord of lords;" Dan. 8:25, "prince of princes;" Phil. 3:5, "Hebrew of Hebrews;" 1 Tim. 6:15, "King of kings and Lord of lords." Most students of the Scriptures understand what is meant by such expressions, so why is Eph. 3:21, "eon of the eons" an enigma? The eon of the eons refers to the final and greatest of all eons.
Ephesians 3:21 translations
NAS
to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen.
KJV
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
The Darby Translation
to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages. Amen).
If that is an appropriate translation then "age of ages" seems to be referring to an ultimate age or timeframe.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 12 of 26 (316729)
05-31-2006 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by purpledawn
05-29-2006 7:50 PM


-—, ——
Also in this article entitled Olam/Aion/Aionian/Aionias (by Mike Burke), Burke and others suggest that the usage of olam/aionios may deal more with quality than duration.
i'll have a look at the article, but i hope that's not what he means.
(olam) is the hebrew word for "world," as in — — "the whole world." (unlike it means the planet as a whole, not just a country or the physical land). a common concordance will show that olam is often translated as "forever." this is kind of an error -- with the people reading concordances at least. concordances provide a list of how specific words are rendered in english, NOT what they mean. often, to make a translation make any sense at all, a word is translated a little differently than its actualy meaning, idiomatically. you've just found one of the FEW cases of the kjv doing this.
olam literally means, and only means "world." other meanings are idiomatic. but it appears in a two-word phrase that corresponds to the english phrase "for ever." the first word is rendered "for" and the second "ever" by most translations, and so pops up a lot in a concordance as "ever" or "forever."
the two word phrase is -—, which literally means "as far as the world." ie: as long as the world exists. while that doesn't neccessarily mean "forever" literally, it's apparently a common idiom in hebrew. it's even in the dictionary (copy and paste -— into the search box. i can't link to an aspx generated result). similarly, "to-world" —— and variants have the same meaning, idiomatically. so, for instance, in genesis 17 (an example) the lamed on the phrase —‘ — (l'briyt olam) modifies the whole phrase, briyt-olam. olam serves like an adjective but it's really part of the noun-phrase and the two function as a single word. so it means (as best as i can explain) "to be a convenant to the world." and thss, "for a covenant for ever." it's a little hard to explain, as it doesn't quite work in english.
looking over the article, most of the hebrew points seem a little over-literal. like we really mean eternity when we tell someone we'll love them forever.
Edited by arachnophilia, : typoe


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 26 (316845)
06-01-2006 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by arachnophilia
05-31-2006 9:28 PM


Re: -—, ——
I wonder if the meaning "as long as the world exists" is from an individual perspective? I mean, if I died tomorrow, the world would end as far as I saw it...
I guess what I am suggesting is that any sort of writing is mean't to convey a point to those who read (or hear) it.
Thats one thing that I am trying to do more often lately: Look at scripture in the context of the culture of its time and to whom it was written.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 14 of 26 (316905)
06-01-2006 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Phat
06-01-2006 12:06 PM


Re: -—, ——
I wonder if the meaning "as long as the world exists" is from an individual perspective? I mean, if I died tomorrow, the world would end as far as I saw it...
well, that's relatively the same way we use forever, isn't it? we very rarely use it to mean eternity. it kind of depends on usage, context, who's saying it, and yes probably who's hearing it.
Thats one thing that I am trying to do more often lately: Look at scripture in the context of the culture of its time and to whom it was written.
always a good idea.


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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 15 of 26 (316972)
06-02-2006 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by arachnophilia
05-31-2006 9:28 PM


Re: -—, ——
My Hebrew teacher to the rescue.
quote:
concordances provide a list of how specific words are rendered in english, NOT what they mean.
Good to know. Since I know how words can be used in many different ways even contrary to their literal meaning, I'm uncomfortable having to rely on a concordance; but it's all I have.
quote:
i'll have a look at the article, but i hope that's not what he means.
The idea of quality, I think, is more related to the usage of aion as an adjective in the NT. I haven't had time to sit down and investigate other usages in the NT.
quote:
— (olam) is the hebrew word for "world," as in — — "the whole world." (unlike it means the planet as a whole, not just a country or the physical land).
So it means the planet itself or the planet and its inhabitants as a whole? Of course if the inhabitants are gone, then not much to have a covenant with.
quote:
olam serves like an adjective but it's really part of the noun-phrase and the two function as a single word. so it means (as best as i can explain) "to be a convenant to the world." and thss, "for a covenant for ever."
Or to be a covenant as long as the planet exists?
So it does really deal with a very long period of time, not a time without end.
quote:
like we really mean eternity when we tell someone we'll love them forever.
I looked up eternal in the etymology dictionary.
c.1366 (in variant form eterne), from O.Fr. eternal, from L.L. æternalis, from L. æternus contraction of æviternus "of great age," from ævum "age." Eternity first attested c.1374. In the Mercian hymns, L. æternum is glossed by O.E. ecnisse.
Even our own word doesn't mean without end.
So given what you have told me about olam, when the OT was translated into the LXX, they used the word aion, which supposedly means age. From my viewpoint that would show that the translators didn't understand the usage of olam to mean time without end. Is this a logical conclusion?
Concerning the Greek word aion and the quality issue. I found this article which also mentions that using "aion" as an adjective describes the quality of the noun used.
As to the possibility of the "everlasting punishment" of the wicked and the "eternal life" of the righteous being the same, it doesn't exist. The Greek word, "aeonian" simply means, "pertaining to the age". "Aeonian," being the adjective form of "aeon," is descriptive of both the kind of life of the righteous and the kind of punishment of the wicked. In the strictest sense, it really has no reference to time at all but to the quality of that life or punishment. Does that do away with eternal life for the redeemed? Not at all, for it is clearly taught by many other scriptures throughout the Bible, but "aeon/aeonios" does not describe the duration of that life.
I couldn't find "olam" being used as an adjective the way that "aion" is in the NT.
The only verse I found in the OT that was translated "eternal God" is in Deuteronomy.
Deuteronomy 33:27
The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.
But the word used for eternal is "qedem".
I guess the question is: When and how did our English word eternal come to be understood to mean without end?

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by arachnophilia, posted 05-31-2006 9:28 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
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