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Author Topic:   It's not impossible... (Scottness and Brian only)
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3290 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 1 of 15 (370794)
12-19-2006 12:31 AM


In the science forum: The Bible; Accuracy and errancy- what is the biggest Bible contradiction... In message #292, Brian wrote:
...There's also the historical inaccuracies to consider, and the obvious impossibilities (such as the dead walking the streets and the impossible three hour eclipse).

I would like to have a private debate on this theme with brian. I suppose a great debate is the only option.

In particular, I would like to discuss the potential of seemingly impossible occurences being quite natural... for lack of a better word.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Added the "(Scottness and Brian only)" to the topic title.


Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Brian, posted 12-19-2006 12:38 PM Rob has responded

    
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Message 2 of 15 (370806)
12-19-2006 2:16 AM


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Message 3 of 15 (370808)
12-19-2006 2:20 AM


Scottness and Brian


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    Brian
    Member (Idle past 2401 days)
    Posts: 4659
    From: Scotland
    Joined: 10-22-2002


    Message 4 of 15 (370878)
    12-19-2006 12:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Rob
    12-19-2006 12:31 AM


    I'll be happy to participate.

    Please keep in mind that I am not at the forum everyday as I am busy with work and other commitments, so responses may not be as frequent as you would expect.

    Brian


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 12:31 AM Rob has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 5 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 3:05 PM Brian has responded

        
    Rob 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3290 days)
    Posts: 2297
    Joined: 06-01-2006


    Message 5 of 15 (370927)
    12-19-2006 3:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Brian
    12-19-2006 12:38 PM


    I'll be happy to participate.

    Please keep in mind that I am not at the forum everyday as I am busy with work and other commitments, so responses may not be as frequent as you would expect.

    First, thank you for agreeing to this exchange. It sounds as though you are looking forward to it as much as I. I enjoyed our bantering in the other thread, and respect your reasoned skepticism.

    As for time, I understand. We all have other responsibilities that require our attention. Some more than others. I'll be patient when waiting for a response.

    As far as I am concerned we can let the topics fly, as they naturally move from one dimension to the next. I think with just you and I here we can keep track of our converstation. I don't know how much the moderators need to keep things focused in this type of setting. Certainly some degree of flow must be maintained. Let's find out!

    ---------

    In getting to the point, I wanted to ask you something that touches on the idea of the 'impossible'. I've framed the question this way...

    In terms of such things as the possibility of alien life elsewhere in the universe, what do you think?

    And more specifically, in terms of science fiction, what about the transporters in the Star Trek series? Is it impossible in your mind?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Brian, posted 12-19-2006 12:38 PM Brian has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 6 by Brian, posted 12-19-2006 4:37 PM Rob has responded

        
    Brian
    Member (Idle past 2401 days)
    Posts: 4659
    From: Scotland
    Joined: 10-22-2002


    Message 6 of 15 (370963)
    12-19-2006 4:37 PM
    Reply to: Message 5 by Rob
    12-19-2006 3:05 PM


    In terms of such things as the possibility of alien life elsewhere in the universe, what do you think?

    Possible but no evidence for it.

    Star Trek transporter is impossible IMO.

    Brian.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 3:05 PM Rob has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 7 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 5:58 PM Brian has responded

        
    Rob 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3290 days)
    Posts: 2297
    Joined: 06-01-2006


    Message 7 of 15 (370979)
    12-19-2006 5:58 PM
    Reply to: Message 6 by Brian
    12-19-2006 4:37 PM


    Well you certainly took the wind out of my sails. As such you may find what I have to say rather humorous rather than relevant to your answer. At any rate, I will be eager to hear your response.

    Alien life? You said:

    Possible but no evidence for it.

    Star Trek transporter is impossible IMO.

    I'll assume you answered candidly.

    I asked those two questions because I know that you have some knowledge of science. I suppose we may be a bit amaturish when it comes to the details of such things, but I believe an intelligent human being with the right cognitive capacities can visualize these things. I believe most people are in that catagory.

    I wanted to make two points... Jesus is aid to have ascended into heaven. He was 'Taken up' in a cloud (whatever that means). I like to picture that as some form of dematerialization.

    The point is not so much that the 'transporter' technology is harnessable by man with machinery capable of accomplishing such a feat, but that it is far more natural or ('most natural') than what we consider supernatural at the levels of reality inwhich God lives. The reality inwhich energy is then reduced to mere Spirit and transcends the natural universe. I believe it to be 'most natural'.

    Of course that is a metaphysical belief like string theory, and is only a hint of what I interpret the quantum realm to contain. And I admittedly am no expert on the sciences, the quantum being one of them. However, John Polkinghorne at Cambridge is a professor of quantum physics at cambridge and makes that same point. That the dimension of the transcendant can no longer be ignored. Others such as the pantheist Fritjof Capra, also make the claim but from a different spiritual bent than Christianity.

    It's something I think is worthy of considering. Not dismissable out of hand.

    To me, this is just fascinating stuff to ponder and think about. And in an obvious way, also just so happens to point to the person of Christ, as not just extraordinary, but likely as well. Am I trying to lead you. Absolutely!

    It ties in with the other question. I have often thought that something is out there. I think it is inherent in the human condition . Something that confirms for us on some very fuzzy level that we are not alone.

    I got this idea when in disgusted response to my Christian beliefs, a man told me he was waiting for the aliens show up and set us all straight. He had understandably lost his faith in Mankind. And that tends to push us from the idea of this God-man as believeable.

    It cuts at the root of our belief that any man could actually be so much more righteous than you or I, that we could bend our knee in the kind of honorable service that so many films about honor and selflessness conjure.

    Let's admit that our patriototism in whatever culture is the blind leading the blind. So the question arises, who can see? Who has the discipline and the patience to lead us into reality? who has the authority to handle that kind of power? What would it look like?

    What struck me with his alien comment, was his search for a savior. Again, a common theme for humanity. Something base and 'most natural'. Be it cars, women, money, politics, philosophy, aliens or what have you, we simply need to have something to believe in.

    So I responded to him, and said that I believed the aliens had already visited us two thousand years ago. And not in some mechanical vessel that fits our notion of a space craft, but something far more sophisticated. A vessel of such complexity and natural construction, that it was part and parcel of the universe itself. An organic vessel of unimaginable glory. something we take for granted more than almost any other gift.

    And then I mentioned to him that just as in the 50' movie where the alien comes out of his ship and reveals himself with a gesture of peace and we interpret that as a threat and kill him... So we also crucified our Lord when we could not understand his terms of peace.

    It's 'most natural'.

    That connection is far more than coincidental to me. How about you? What do you think when Christ tells us we are condemed already, and He did not come to condemn but to save.

    What do you think when a man claims to be God and then lays down all he has materially and completely trusts in what to us seems to be the unknown?

    When you look at the world, is it not condemed already? Speaking for myself, I know that I am like that thief on the cross... My punishment would be justified, because in some 'most natural' way... I believe in my heart that there is justice, though the physical evidence would lead me to think not.

    Jar wanted an affirmative example of an absolute in the other thread. I believe it is justice, mercy, and love.

    We expect all of those from others because it is most natural.

    There is only one place you find them all.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by Brian, posted 12-19-2006 4:37 PM Brian has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 8 by Brian, posted 12-20-2006 1:41 PM Rob has responded

        
    Brian
    Member (Idle past 2401 days)
    Posts: 4659
    From: Scotland
    Joined: 10-22-2002


    Message 8 of 15 (371163)
    12-20-2006 1:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 7 by Rob
    12-19-2006 5:58 PM


    but I believe an intelligent human being with the right cognitive capacities can visualize these things.

    These things are easy to visualise. Peter Pan is also easy to visualise.

    I wanted to make two points... Jesus is aid to have ascended into heaven. He was 'Taken up' in a cloud (whatever that means). I like to picture that as some form of dematerialization.

    That Jesus was said to have ascended to heaven is not the same as Jesus actually ascending to heaven.

    The point is not so much that the 'transporter' technology is harnessable by man with machinery capable of accomplishing such a feat, but that it is far more natural or ('most natural') than what we consider supernatural at the levels of reality in which God lives.

    But to make this argument you have to overcome one huge obstacle. You have to prove that God exists; you have to prove that there are realities other than this one.

    The reality in which energy is then reduced to mere Spirit and transcends the natural universe. I believe it to be 'most natural'.

    What evidence did you find to convince you of this?

    However, John Polkinghorne at Cambridge is a professor of quantum physics at cambridge and makes that same point. That the dimension of the transcendant can no longer be ignored. Others such as the pantheist Fritjof Capra, also make the claim but from a different spiritual bent than Christianity.

    These are just arguments from authority. I can quite happily ignore the dimension of the transcendent, regardless of what anyone says.

    It's something I think is worthy of considering. Not dismissable out of hand.

    Many of us have considered this though, many of us were indeed Christians before we concluded it was all BS.

    To me, this is just fascinating stuff to ponder and think about.

    I was the same myself about 20-odd years ago, but I have other things to ponder over now, more productive things.

    And in an obvious way, also just so happens to point to the person of Christ, as not just extraordinary, but likely as well. Am I trying to lead you. Absolutely!

    You’ll need to try harder dude! :D

    I think Christ is a myth, and so obviously not the messiah of the OT that even if He appeared to me in a dream or vision I’d more than likely not believe it.

    It ties in with the other question. I have often thought that something is out there.

    Here’s my theory, and it applies to C S Lewis too. Lewis also thought that there was something out there, and I am not convinced that he ever stopped being a Christian, despite what he writes. I think that if people try hard enough they can make anything a reality to themselves. I also think that there is a certain type of person who is more open to self-delusion than others. I also happen to think that when an individual goes through some traumatic experience they turn to God and make Him real in their mind. Take a drug addict as an example. I don’t think I have ever met a more enthusiastic convert to Christianity than an ex drug addict. But I also think that some people have an addictive nature, the drug addict craves drugs, when they convert they crave their new fix, Jesus.

    So, I think that certain people convince themselves that God is real, despite the evidence, or lack of.

    I think it is inherent in the human condition . Something that confirms for us on some very fuzzy level that we are not alone.

    I am quite at ease with the thought that we are alone.

    I got this idea when in disgusted response to my Christian beliefs, a man told me he was waiting for the aliens show up and set us all straight. He had understandably lost his faith in Mankind. And that tends to push us from the idea of this God-man as believeable.

    This suggests that the whole of mankind is evil and there are no good people at all. Which is quite at odds with my life experiences. Sure, there are nasty people out there, but there are also a great many good people.

    It cuts at the root of our belief that any man could actually be so much more righteous than you or I,

    But I know there are more righteous people out there than I am, and it doesn’t bother me at all. I just do my bit when I can.

    that we could bend our knee in the kind of honorable service that so many films about honor and selflessness conjure.

    Would a righteous person expect you to honour him/her?

    Let's admit that our patriototism in whatever culture is the blind leading the blind.

    Why would I admit that?

    So the question arises, who can see?

    The question only arises if we accept your false premise.

    Who has the discipline and the patience to lead us into reality?

    We are already in reality, what other reality are you on about?

    who has the authority to handle that kind of power?

    Again irrelevant.

    What would it look like?

    Oh let me guess, a 6ft white Hebrew with blonde hair and a beard?

    What struck me with his alien comment, was his search for a savior. Again, a common theme for humanity.

    Common, but not universal.

    Something base and 'most natural'. Be it cars, women, money, politics, philosophy, aliens or what have you, we simply need to have something to believe in.

    I don’t. Neither do many other people.

    You are loading the dice so they roll to what you would like me to fall into line with. I am afraid that I do not agree with most of the premises of your arguments.

    So I responded to him, and said that I believed the aliens had already visited us two thousand years ago. And not in some mechanical vessel that fits our notion of a space craft, but something far more sophisticated. A vessel of such complexity and natural construction, that it was part and parcel of the universe itself. An organic vessel of unimaginable glory. something we take for granted more than almost any other gift.

    And then I mentioned to him that just as in the 50' movie where the alien comes out of his ship and reveals himself with a gesture of peace and we interpret that as a threat and kill him... So we also crucified our Lord when we could not understand his terms of peace.
    It's 'most natural'.

    Most natural to you perhaps. But the biggest load of bull for me. Did your friend not have the capacity to think or something?

    That connection is far more than coincidental to me. How about you?

    I fail to see any connection sorry. All I see are huge leaps in logic
    and faulty premises.

    What do you think when Christ tells us we are condemed already, and He did not come to condemn but to save.

    I couldn’t care less what Jesus was supposed to have said, it makes no difference to my life whatsoever.

    What do you think when a man claims to be God

    We don’t even know for sure if He did make this claim.

    and then lays down all he has materially and completely trusts in what to us seems to be the unknown?

    He hardly made any worthwhile sacrifice though did He?

    A bit of a beating and 3 hours on a cross is hardly worth mentioning to an eternal being who knows he will only be in the heart of the earth for three days then He will be back in heaven with daddy.

    Why do people get so excited about Jesus’ sacrifice? It is just silly.

    When you look at the world, is it not condemed already?

    Well, once the sun expands the earth will be destroyed.

    Speaking for myself, I know that I am like that thief on the cross...

    Another Christian in need of self esteem classes?

    My punishment would be justified,

    Why? Is it because some Hebrew campfire tale says a woman ate a fruit 6000 years ago?

    because in some 'most natural' way... I believe in my heart that there is justice,

    If there were any justice the God of the Bible would not be worshipped. A God who happily murders innocent Egyptians babies and innocent Canaanite babies is some sort of psycho. How can anyone worship such a hideous being?

    though the physical evidence would lead me to think not.

    It’s the only evidence that you have though.

    Jar wanted an affirmative example of an absolute in the other thread. I believe it is justice, mercy, and love.

    But you still haven’t provided any evidence for this, only your opinion.

    We expect all of those from others because it is most natural.

    You expect them!

    There is only one place you find them all.

    Well it certainly isn’t found in the God of the Bible.

    Anyway, how about some worthwhile evidence that the dead walked the streets when Jesus died. You said it was more than likely true, what is this based on?

    Brian.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 7 by Rob, posted 12-19-2006 5:58 PM Rob has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by Rob, posted 12-20-2006 11:47 PM Brian has responded

        
    Rob 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3290 days)
    Posts: 2297
    Joined: 06-01-2006


    Message 9 of 15 (371313)
    12-20-2006 11:47 PM
    Reply to: Message 8 by Brian
    12-20-2006 1:41 PM


    Just checking in to see how badly I had been ravished by the gang...

    Pretty bad it appears.

    No time for formal replies and likely not this week. Did you know it was Christmas this week?

    Real quick though... I did think of another absolute other than justice and mercy...

    Rebellion!


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by Brian, posted 12-20-2006 1:41 PM Brian has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 10 by Brian, posted 12-21-2006 1:42 PM Rob has responded

        
    Brian
    Member (Idle past 2401 days)
    Posts: 4659
    From: Scotland
    Joined: 10-22-2002


    Message 10 of 15 (371412)
    12-21-2006 1:42 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Rob
    12-20-2006 11:47 PM


    No time for formal replies and likely not this week.

    If you keep up your behaviour it'll likely not be next week either! :laugh:

    Did you know it was Christmas this week?

    Actually I didn't, I thought it is next week. :P Did I miss it?

    I must say you are doing Christianity a great service here at EvC. All this talk about how moral a person Jesus was, and God is love n sh*t.

    If I become a Christian can I be a liar like you?

    I think I am going to add you to my list on people who think they are a Christian but they actually aren't because I don't really think you are convinced in the slightest about Jesus sacrifice and what it means to Christians.

    If that darned woman hadn't eaten that fruit 6000 years ago then you wouldn't be able to tell lies.

    You should become an atheist, maybe then you would have a higher moral code. ;)

    Anyway, see you when your ban is up, and do try to behave so we can continue this conversation.

    Brian.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by Rob, posted 12-20-2006 11:47 PM Rob has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 1:19 AM Brian has responded

        
    Rob 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3290 days)
    Posts: 2297
    Joined: 06-01-2006


    Message 11 of 15 (371916)
    12-24-2006 1:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 10 by Brian
    12-21-2006 1:42 PM


    If I become a Christian can I be a liar like you?

    No! It's not like that... Before you can become a Christian, you have to admit you are a liar.

    BTW, what did I lie about?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 10 by Brian, posted 12-21-2006 1:42 PM Brian has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 12 by Brian, posted 12-24-2006 4:35 AM Rob has responded

        
    Brian
    Member (Idle past 2401 days)
    Posts: 4659
    From: Scotland
    Joined: 10-22-2002


    Message 12 of 15 (371939)
    12-24-2006 4:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 11 by Rob
    12-24-2006 1:19 AM


    No! It's not like that... Before you can become a Christian, you have to admit you are a liar.

    Well I am not a liar so I guess I cannot become a Christian.

    BTW, what did I lie about?

    About not being Rob. That's why you were suspended.

    Any luck on constructing an argument about the lilkihood of the dead wandering about the streets after Jesus died?

    Brian.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 11 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 1:19 AM Rob has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 13 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 10:50 AM Brian has responded

        
    Rob 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3290 days)
    Posts: 2297
    Joined: 06-01-2006


    Message 13 of 15 (371981)
    12-24-2006 10:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 12 by Brian
    12-24-2006 4:35 AM


    About not being Rob. That's why you were suspended.

    I never claimed to not be Rob. Not speaking about something is not equal to deception. Sometimes it is best to just keep your mouth shut. And I have a hard time with that, so it was a personal victory.

    But I am glad that you are not a liar. Your the first one I've met. What a privilage!


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by Brian, posted 12-24-2006 4:35 AM Brian has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 14 by Brian, posted 12-24-2006 1:30 PM Rob has responded

        
    Brian
    Member (Idle past 2401 days)
    Posts: 4659
    From: Scotland
    Joined: 10-22-2002


    Message 14 of 15 (372012)
    12-24-2006 1:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by Rob
    12-24-2006 10:50 AM


    So when you said:

    Whoever Rob is, he must have tried to explain this to you before.

    you weren't lying?

    You really do not know who Rob is?

    Deary me, it seems that you are a compulsive liar, you need a saviour, a real saviour as it looks as if Jesus has failed you.

    Any luck with this evidence I keep asking for?

    Brian.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 10:50 AM Rob has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 15 by Rob, posted 12-24-2006 10:16 PM Brian has not yet responded

        
    Rob 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3290 days)
    Posts: 2297
    Joined: 06-01-2006


    Message 15 of 15 (372094)
    12-24-2006 10:16 PM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Brian
    12-24-2006 1:30 PM


    Deary me, it seems that you are a compulsive liar, you need a saviour, a real saviour as it looks as if Jesus has failed you.

    Ah I see now... you think that Jesus saving a person is equal to Him making a person sinless.

    There is so much you have to learn...

    Any luck with this evidence I keep asking for?

    Any luck with convincing me you really care?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 14 by Brian, posted 12-24-2006 1:30 PM Brian has not yet responded

        
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