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Author Topic:   If some parts of the Bible can't be trusted how can any of it?
DC85
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 1 of 189 (110766)
05-26-2004 9:46 PM


This is a chain off from
Women and the Fundamentalist View of Marriage
Born2Preach said:
I am Christian but the Bible DOES contradict itself clearly when Jesus says something like 'truly there wouldn't be a new testemant if the old were not flawed'. I think this simply acknowledges that humans tamper with God's word 'telephone' style
I asked:
in this case how can anything in the Bible be trusted?
We figured rather then go off topic we had better start a new topic
so the question is this
If some parts of the Bible can't be trusted how can any of it?

My site The Atheist Bible
My New Debate Fourms!

Replies to this message:
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AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 189 (110838)
05-27-2004 7:37 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
mogur
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 189 (110880)
05-27-2004 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
05-26-2004 9:46 PM


I am Christian but the Bible DOES contradict itself clearly when Jesus says something like 'truly there wouldn't be a new testemant if the old were not flawed'.
Huh? Where is this passage? How did Jesus come to discuss a collection of writings that all happened after his death? I'm scratching my head on this one.
in this case how can anything in the Bible be trusted?
Regardless of that case, you simply don't start with the assumption that it can be trusted. Especially if the express purpose of a collection of writings is to influence you politically, socially, and spiritually. Should we approach all of the nearly 2,000 sacred writings in this world as the absolute truth until proven otherwise? If not, then what gives the bible special status? If it is your faith that makes the bible special, then you simply can't qualify as an unbiased investigator. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't be allowed to evaluate its varacity, because your findings will certainly have value to yourself, and possibly have value to others of your faith, but please be aware that people who don't share your faith will be somewhat skeptical of your assessment. Would you trust a scientific inquiry into the historical relevance of the koran, or an inquiry commissioned by moslem clerics? [figurative question, there]

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 189 (110883)
05-27-2004 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
05-26-2004 9:46 PM


Only a personal belief
and so worth what you pay for it.
The Bible can be trusted as a Map or Guide toward How to Live and Why things are as they are. But that is all that it is, it is a map.
If you buy a copy of the latest Rand McNally, it may well show you how to drive from Baltimore to San Francisco. It will offer a variety of routes to get from point A to point B. Some may be shorter, others perhaps more scenic, still others more challenging.
But there are several problems. For one, it will not be up to date. There will be detours, construction and other changes along the way. It will give you some of the information you need but not all of it, and some of the information will certainly be incorrect or outdated.
The Bible is like that. You need to take the information from the Bible and compare that to the reality you see around you. It does not matter if the map shows that the fastest way through Houston is I-10, if when you get there the road has been torn up and you need to detour, saying that the map shows the road as passable will not get you through.
This is also true of the Bible. One good example is Genesis. The Map (Bible) shows Creation and the Universe one way. But when we look at the world around us, what we find is quite different.
It makes little sense to rail that what we see must match the Map.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Replies to this message:
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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 5 of 189 (110885)
05-27-2004 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
05-26-2004 9:46 PM


If some parts of the Bible can't be trusted how can any of it?
You have to {gasp!} think about it and make your own decisions. Parts of it obviously can be trusted, parts obviously cannot be trusted, for some parts it's not obvious whether or not they can be trusted. The overall message is (IMHO) valuable and worth paying attention to.
Different people will come to different conclusions about what can be trusted. Most of those conclusions I wouldn't argue, even if I disagree.

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mogur
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 189 (110887)
05-27-2004 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
05-27-2004 12:09 PM


Only a personal relief......
Very nice analogy, jar. I really like that. Let's say we go to the map location of Camelot, and dig up King Arthur's court. What should we make of the fact that his round table turns out to be square? Is it allegorically round? Is Merlin just up to his old tricks? Or, maybe we need to re-evaluate our faith in the story.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by jar, posted 05-27-2004 12:35 PM mogur has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 189 (110890)
05-27-2004 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by mogur
05-27-2004 12:30 PM


Re: Arthur is a great example
of what is happening and I would love to see a thread on that. Here is an individual that allegedly lived not too many centuries after the Council of Nicea, yet even his very existance is questionable.
Good subject, start a thread on it and we can go from there.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 6 by mogur, posted 05-27-2004 12:30 PM mogur has replied

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mogur
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 189 (110892)
05-27-2004 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jar
05-27-2004 12:35 PM


Re: Arthur is a great example
While the story is full of inspirational messages of bravery, loyalty, and chivalry, it is unencumbered by the claim that it is describing reality. But if you see a parallel, please be my guest.
Edited to add: Upon investigation, I guess that there are actually people who believe the legend of Arthur to the point of faith. Some besotted idiot is actually offering $50,000 to anyone who can disprove his belief in King Arthur. Hmmm, I wonder what price my faith has.
This message has been edited by mogur, 05-27-2004 12:26 PM

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custard
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 189 (110963)
05-27-2004 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by JonF
05-27-2004 12:14 PM


Different people will come to different conclusions about what can be trusted.
That and I think the topic thread skirts the False Dilemma fallacy.
Most likely it's a combination of truth and fiction; like most books.
Just because some things, or even most things, in the bible might be false, it doesn't make all of it garbage. Just like a few established truths in the bible don't make all of it the divine word of god.
This message has been edited by custard, 05-27-2004 05:36 PM

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DC85
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 10 of 189 (110991)
05-27-2004 9:59 PM


A lot of people say they believe the Bible because it teaches good lessons and it touches them etc...
Well I don't know about you but I was touched by the little engine that could. It also teaches a good lesson.
I THINK I CAN! I THINK I CAN!
what I can't understand is why they have faith in the Bible.
There must be reason beyond that "I Just I have faith" or "its just a matter faith." WHY do you have faith? Is it because your parents did?
Do you do everything like your parents?
I am not trying to down God I am just trying to understand... I broke away from it when I started to think for my self (teens 15)
This message has been edited by DC85, 05-27-2004 09:02 PM

My site The Atheist Bible
My New Debate Fourms!

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custard
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 189 (110994)
05-27-2004 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by DC85
05-27-2004 9:59 PM


I am not trying to down God I am just trying to understand... I broke away from it when I started to think for my self (teens 15)
Yeah, my gramps was a baptist preacher in a rural area in Oregon and during the summers I would have to go to bible camp. When I was around ten I kept noticing that I could never get an answer to my questions that satisfied me. Everything kept coming back to "that's the miracle."
Me: how did Noah fit all those animals on the ark?
Them: that's the miracle.
Me: how did sampson kill 1,000 Philistines with a jawbone of an ass
them: he did, the bible says so
me: but that's like 1 Philistine per minute for almost 17 hours?
them: that's the miracle.
The two that finally got me were:
me: where do dinasaurs come from?
them: satan put those bones there to trick us.
me: why can't I read my Dungeons & Dragons stuff?
them: because Sunday is the Lord's day.
So I agree with you, the bible is book written by men, and as such, prone to error. You can trust it as much as you could trust any other media with a particular agenda. Some of Leni Reifenstahl's films depicted reality, and some were absolute propaganda.
I guess it's like the previous poster said, Christians have to pick and choose; however, I find it inconsistent how they do that.
Finally, I think many people just want to trust in something - a parent figure if you will, so they have something to turn to. Various reasons for this: shirking personal responsibility, sense of purpose, vanity, anthropomorphizing what is difficult to understand (nature). I think that's why they gloss over biblical inconsistencies, errors, and doctrine we find abhorrent today (slavery); because the good parts, the parts they trust, make them feel secure and better about themselves.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 12 of 189 (110995)
05-27-2004 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by DC85
05-27-2004 9:59 PM


Well, that's a bunch off topic but afterall, it's your thread.
First, there is absolutely nothing wrong with "Little Engine that Could". And if you follow that direction, there is little that you cannot do. It's one of those things that is essential during growing up and even adults need to return for a refresher at times.
There are other similar things that are part of growing up. A few that I find myself returning to are the Tales of Narnia, the works of Joseph Campbell, Jacob Bronowski's Ascent of Man as well as the much earlier Lowell Lecture Series of the smae name, Mere Christianity, Kim and the Jungle Books. Each of these are parts of developing a knowledge of who you are and what the world around you is like.
But you asked "why they have faith in the Bible?"
I think I answered part of that above. It is a very good map, a guidebook. It's certainly not the only one and the more maps and guidebooks you have, the more you learn about the neighborhood. I would feel remise if I didn't also read the Koran and as many of the Jewish comments on the Talmud as possible. In addition, it's good to spend time looking at the other major religions and philosophies, the wonders of the Hindu sects, the richness of Buddhism and the other Eastern Philosophies.
But they all seem to lead to a common point. They all point to a way of life, of living with others and the world itself, and most towards a life after death. And I think that is what so many people see, a guide for living and also a promise of life everlasting.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 189 (111001)
05-27-2004 11:59 PM


If we cant trust the Bible in absolutely everything it says then we cannot trust it in anything it says. Including Jesus, heaven, hell, judgement, everything. We can use the Bible as Jar says like a map. But we definately do not have an absolute authority. One we can trust with all we have. We just have a book. The Bible. Written by men a long time ago.

Replies to this message:
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DC85
Member (Idle past 380 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 14 of 189 (111006)
05-28-2004 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by almeyda
05-27-2004 11:59 PM


I don't understand.... do you trust in the bible or not?

This message is a reply to:
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almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 189 (111012)
05-28-2004 12:32 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by DC85
05-28-2004 12:17 AM


Yes i do. But i take Genesis literally. And trust the Bible as Gods word without error. Theistic evolutionists however...

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