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Author Topic:   There is no such thing as The Bible
Brian
Member (Idle past 4980 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 1 of 305 (57813)
09-25-2003 5:12 PM


What is the Bible anyway?
Most Bible’s inform the reader in their introductions that ‘Bible’ means ‘a collection of books’, from the Greek word biblia. However, I would say that we should stop referring to ‘a collection of books’ as THE Bible and begin to refer to them as A Bible.
Anyone who looks into the history and development of the Bibles that we have today knows that there is a vast range of Bibles to choose from. Even if we are only talking about the English translation, we still have a wide range of Bibles to choose from.
If I use myself as an example, as someone who has no religious attachments and is only studying the Bible (at the moment at least) as a collection of ancient texts, can I go to a bookshop and buy THE Bible? This may appear to be a bit of a silly question but if I elaborate then you can see the dilemma facing the non-attached enquirer.
For a start, which version would I buy? I could choose from the King James Version widely known as the Authorised Version (AV), or I could have a nice Revised English Bible (REB), a New Revised Standard Version (NRSV), or perhaps a New Jerusalem Bible (NJB), or even the Good News Bible (GNB), this is just a small amount of the variety of Bibles on offer.
So how would I go about picking a Bible? One of the first things I would notice is that not all Bibles have the same contents; some have more books than other versions for example. Some have an Old Testament section that is much longer than others, and some even have an entire section devoted to the ‘Apocrypha’, which is missing from other versions. Anyone comparing the NJB with the AV may be surprised just how much longer the NJB is, it is also much longer than the NIV as well. Even individual Bibles are available in longer and shorter versions; this is especially true of the REB and the NRSV.
Assuming that you can get your hands on the longer REB and NRSV you may be very surprised at just how different the Old Testament sections will be. The NJB contains more books than the AV of King James, the REB is again contains more books than the NJB and finally, the NRSV contains yet more books!
So we have already four alternative versions to choose from but it gets more complicated, the bookshop may just happen to have a copy of the GNB for Catholics, or a Jewish translation of the Old Testament published by the Jewish Publication Society of America. This latter version would cause more confusion if, for example, it was compared to the AV you would discover that from 2 Kings onwards the books appear in a different order. Of course this is down to the differences between how the various producers of Bibles since the Reformation have viewed the Old Testament books and the Apocrypha, this has caused some tremendous variety of Bibles to choose from.
The division between the Old Testament and the Apocrypha goes way back to disputes in the early church as to whether the Hebrew or the Greek versions of the Old Testament was to be accepted as authoritative. The Hebrew version is essentially the same as the Old Testament that is found in today’s Protestant Bibles, but again these are in a slightly different sequence. The Greek version is known as the Septuagint and is longer than the Hebrew version as it contains books that were not originally written in Hebrew or books for which the original Hebrew was no longer available. The Greek version triumphed over the Hebrew version and the Latin Vulgate, which contained the longer Greek version, became the standard version for the Western Church until the Reformation.
During the Reformation there was a renewed interest in translating the Bible from its original Hebrew and Greek into languages such as German and English and this is where more confusion enters the scene, what could be done about those books in the Septuagint that had no Hebrew predecessor? Well Andreas Karlstadt argued that it should only be the works that existed in Hebrew that were canonical, and he designated the rest as Apocrypha. Luther put Karlstadt’s idea into practice when he compiled a Bible in 1534, in which the Apocryphal books were placed after the Old Testament and prefaced by the comment that these books were not on the same level as Holy Scripture but were useful and good for reading. The first printed Bible by Myles Coverdale included all Luther’s books except the Prayer of Manasseh, but in a different order yet again. The first English Bible to include the Prayer of Manasseh was Matthew’s Bible of 1537, which was produced by John Rogers working under the pseudonym of Thomas Matthew.
Coverdale and Rogers had laid the foundations for the order of the books of Protestant Bibles, and soon after there appeared the Great Bible (1539), the Geneva Bible (1560), the Bishop’s Bible (1568), and eventually, the Authorised Version of 1611. You would think that all these aforementioned permutations of different versions would be enough to give anyone choosing a Bible a headache, but it gets worse! In the 17th century the Apocryphas came under attack and people started producing Bibles without the Apocrypha. For example, an edition of the 1640 Geneva Bible has no Apocrypha and the Westminster Confession of Faith declared in 1648 that the Apocrypha were no longer to be used in the Church of God. The Bible then was stilled played around with and altered as much as two thousand years after the first books were written, so much for the perfectly preserved word of God, it appears that it has been tampered with more than any other collection of books in the history of the world.
There is even more problems encountered whilst trying to decide which Bible to buy when it is discovered that, in regard to the Apocrypha, what we have read so far only concerns the Protestant Bibles in English. Whilst the Apocrypha was demoted to a subordinate text during the Reformation, the council of Trent affirmed the equal status of the Apocryphal books with the rest of the Old Testament books in the Roman Catholic Bibles. However, the aforementioned Prayer of Manasseh and 1 and 2 Esdras (called 3 and 4 Ezra) were not included.
The 1611 KJV (AV) is the Bible preferred by some Protestant groups verging on fundamentalism, I am sure a lot of us have experienced the psychosis known as King James Onlyism, which usually involves a complete lack of knowledge of the history of the evolution of the KJV by the deluded individual.
While the AV initially included the Apocrypha, the Protestant groups that advocate the AV reject the Apocrypha, and therefore demand for the AV has only been a demand for the Old and New Testaments. It was difficult to purchase a copy of the AV with Apocrypha until Oxford University Press recently reissued the AV with Apocrypha in 1997 (Authorised King James Version, with the Apocrypha, World Classics. Oxford: Oxford University Press. 1997). Since the NIV is used by principally conservative churches with their traditional rejection of the Apocrypha, this version was, until recently only available without the Apocrypha. The New Jerusalem Bible though is a Roman Catholic Bible, with the Apocrypha integrated into the Old Testament rather than set aside into an appendix.
So if I was to go and try to buy THE Bible I really cannot be sure what I should be buying. I have all these different Bibles, Protestant Bibles, Catholic Bibles, and at least one Bible that claims to represent Protestants, Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox churches (RSV). I suppose if the differences were just down to the differing amount of books in each Bible them it wouldn’t be that bad, but the truth is there are some major differences in the books that are included in all Bibles.
First of all there are some textual differences to take into consideration.
To find out how these textual found their way into the Bibles it is necessary to find out where the texts originated. The Bibles of the 16th and 17th were obviously were translated from earlier texts, but how early were they, how close to the events they describe were they written?
The Old Testament in the Bibles mentioned earlier, was translated mostly from a medieval Hebrew text of the 10th century CE, the Apocrypha was based mainly on medieval Greek manuscripts of the Septuagint and the New Testament has such a wealth of manuscripts available, some as early as the and second century CE, that the catalogue of their various readings and the decision as to which are closest to what the biblical writers wrote would take months of typing to cover. But for this exercise, to examine some textual differences, the New Testament will provide the examples.
When the New Testament part of the Revised Version was published in 1881, the readers of the AV were absolutely horrified, they were upset because many of passages that they were familiar with are missing from the RV.
A good example of one of these revisions is the Lord’s Prayer in Luke 11:2-4, the RV contains a much shorter version, a version that is supported by texts that were written much earlier than the ones used for the AV.
KJV of Luke 11:2-4:
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.
The RV version:
And he said to them, "When you pray, say: "Father, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread; and forgive us our sins, for we ourselves forgive every one who is indebted to us; and lead us not into temptation.
The authors of the AV obviously were using an erroneous text, or they employed poetic license, when they translated these verses into English.
This is not an isolated example, there are far more, like this one from The Gospel of John, which has a section missing at 5:3-5 in the RV.
The AV John 5:3-5:
In these lay a great multitude of impotent folk, of blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water.
For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had.
And a certain man was there, which had an infirmity thirty and eight years.
The RV version:
In these lay a multitude of them that were sick, blind, halt, withered
One man was there, who had been ill for thirty-eight years.
Even the St. Paul is not spared from the erroneous recordings of the AV, a reference to his conversion account in the AV has been shown to be embellished.
AV of Acts 9:5-6:
And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
The same example from the RV:
And he said, "Who are you, Lord?" And he said, "I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting;
but rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do."
The most infamous variation can be found at 1 John 5:7
AV: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
In the RV however, this verse is numbered verse 8 and reads `For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.'
This is quite a significant variation. A totally nave person could quite easily buy a RV of the Bible and be under the impression that the three that bear witness in heaven are the Spirit, the water and the blood, imagine how confused that person could be if a AV user comes along and gives them their check list of the three that bear witness?
The reason for these differences is that the AV is a translation of a printed edition of the Greek New Testament that first appeared in Paris in 1550. In a later edition of this text (1633) published by Elzevir in Leyden , it was claimed that it was ‘the text which is now received by all’. This led to it being known as the Textus Receptus or ‘Received Text.’
The truth of the matter is that the Textus Receptus was based upon comparatively late manuscripts of the New Testament and in between the AV (the KJV of 1611) and the New Testament of the RV (1881), the much earlier Codex Sinaiticus was discovered in 1844 by Tischendorf in the Monastery of St Catherine on Mount Sinai. Scholars had also gained access to the Codex Vaticanus in the Vatican library. The Bibles produced since these discoveries are based on texts that were written much closer to the time of the events that they portray, the Bibles that are based on the Textus Receptus are using texts that have been produced at a relatively late date and when compared to the earlier texts it can be easily shown that the texts used by the Receptus include material that is not in the earlier texts, because of these embellishments in the later texts, the earlier texts should be given priority. Hence, the AV and the other Bibles that are based on the Textus Receptus are not as accurate as the modern day Bibles.
Another example of the inferior quality of the KJV can be found in the heading to the ‘Letter to the Hebrews’. The KJV records The epistle of Paul the Apostle to the Hebrews, the re isn’t a scholar on the planet who know believes Paul wrote this letter, in fact Pauline authorship was disputed by a few giants of the early Church (Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Tertullian).
As well as these textual differences there are also problems of a linguistic nature. Because of the high regard in which the AV was held, some revisions have sought to remain within the literary tradition of the AV.
Among the directives given to the translators of the NRSV by the National Council of Churches of Christ in the USA in 1980 was that they should ‘continue in the tradition of the King James Bible’, ‘but to introduce such changes as are warranted on the basis of accuracy, clarity, euphony, and current English usage’. The NRSV is thus a self-confessedly literal translation in the tradition of the AV.
A totally different approach has been adopted in the Good News Bible. Based upon Noam Chomsky's theory of transformational grammar as worked out by Eugene Nida, the GNB aims to be a ‘dynamic equivalence’ translation whose aim is to make upon modern readers the impact made upon the original readers. (Whatever that may mean)
These questions aside, the translation theory underlying the GNB gives priority to the culture of the target language (the language into which the Bible is being translated) over the source language, and to direct speech over reported speech. It is also based upon research into the target language, and into the particular level to be used.
One linguistic factor that has affected all recent translations is the matter of gender-free language. Versions such as GNB, REB and NRSV have tried to avoid the third person masculine ‘he’, ‘his’ and ‘him’ wherever possible, as well as ‘man’ and ‘men’, with the NRSV doing this most consistently.
Psalm 1 in the RSV is a fairly literal rendering of the Hebrew:
‘Blessed is the man who walks not in the council of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners.’
The GNB treats the passage differently:
Happy are those who reject the advice of evil men, who do not follow the example of sinners..
The GNB simply introduces changes ‘man’ to ‘those’ in an attempt to avoid offending women.
The REB takes the ‘politically correct’ route as well when it states:
Happy is the one who does not take the counsel of the wicked for a guide.
The use of gender-free language is an attempt to be sensitive to the culture of the target language, however, this sometimes obscures the true meaning since the original Hebrew is certainly not gender free.
There are also doctrinal issues to be considered between the different versions. The NIV quite openly states that it represents the churches that are committed `to the authority and infallibility of the Bible as God's Word in written form'.
One problem with the NIV is that is blatantly changes the text in order to create a better degree of harmony between verses. A good example is Genesis 1-2:4a and 2:4a-25, that these are two different accounts of creation has been accepted by critical biblical scholars for well over a hundred years. The differences are down to the fact that they originate from two different literary sources, but the NIV refuses to accept this and shamelessly changed the text that links the two Genesis myths.
The AV reproduction of Genesis 2:19 is, ‘And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field.', this translation is followed by all major English versions, but giving rise to the problem that, according to chapter 1, God has already created the various types of animal. The NIV harmonizes chapters 1 and 2 with its rendering, `Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field.' A pretty silly way of trying to avoid an obvious contradiction, as this editing actually draws attention to it. If there isn’t a problem with the earlier texts why did the NIV bother to change it?
Another controversy caused by the rise of biblical criticism in the 19th century was how to translate and interpret texts in the Old Testament that were understood in the New Testament as prophecies relating to Jesus. There are dozens of examples of desperate attempts by the evangelists to try and make as much as possible in the Old testament relate to Jesus in some way and perhaps the most famous one is in Matthew 1:22:23 Isaiah 7:14 is cited as follows:
All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: `Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel'.
This was largely how the older English versions (AV and RV) translated Isaiah 7:14, in spite of the fact that the Hebrew word rendered as `virgin' at Isaiah 7:14 meant `young woman'.
Critical commentators on Isaiah 7:14 argued that what mattered in translating the passage was not how it was understood in the New Testament but what it must have meant in the time of Isaiah, i.e. `young woman'; and this is what is found today in the RSV, NRSV, NJB, REB and GNB.
In the 19th century, commentators who said that the reference in Isaiah was to a young woman who was alive at the time when the prophet was speaking, were accused of denying the virgin birth of Jesus and of undermining the inspiration and unity of Scripture. The same charges can still be heard today. The NIV, while not necessarily endorsing these charges, none the less renders Isaiah 7:14 in accordance with its usage in the New Testament: `The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.'
Another passage, which while not directly quoted in the New Testament was traditionally seen as a prophecy of Christ's crucifixion, was Psalm 22:16b, translated following the ancient Greek translation (the Septuagint) as `they pierced my hands and my feet', although the Hebrew literally means `my hands and my feet were like a lion's'. Most modern versions attempt to render the Hebrew rather than the Greek. The NRSV has `my hands and my feet have shrivelled', which is probably the exact opposite of what the Hebrew is trying to convey which is that, in the Psalmist's emaciated state, his hands and feet look grotesquely large and claw-like. The REB has `they have bound me hand and foot', Even GNB's `they tear at my hands and feet' removes the allusion to the Passion narrative. The NIV retains the connection with the Passion in its rendering, `they have pierced my hands and my feet'.
The NIV is a travesty, its sole intent is to harmonise the biblical texts and to over exaggerate the so-called references to Jesus in the Old Testament. I personally wouldn’t touch the NIV or the KJV with a barge pole.
So I would like to propose that we stop using the term ‘ The’ Bible and start using the term ‘ A ’ Bible. The bottom line really is that we do not know for certain what exactly the ‘Word of God’ is, any bible that we have today is the end product of a long and varied evolution, there are too many manipulations of the text by interested parties for it to be a reliable document.
Biblio:
Kummel W G The New Testament: The History of the Investigation of its Problems SCM Press, London 1972.
Morgan R Biblical Interpretation Oxford University Press, 1988
Rogerson, J W An Introduction to the Bible, Penguin Books London 1999.
Rogerson J W & Davies P The Old Testament World Cambridge University Press, 1989.
Wilson G H The Editing of the Hebrew Psalter Chico, Calif.: Scholars Press, 1985

Replies to this message:
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Rei
Member (Idle past 7034 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 2 of 305 (57818)
09-25-2003 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
09-25-2003 5:12 PM


Very good of you to point all of this out to people. Although I know it wasn't intentional, what you stated actually portrays a much more harmonious picture than actually exists. The worst contradictions are the inter-text contridictions, such as Ezra and Nehmiah, which contain page after page of differing numbers on the return from Babylon and the reconstruction of the temple (which NIV, as always, smooths over without telling the readers). I personally like the NIV because it points out when there are inter-text contradictions, and - when there are multiple manuscripts for a given part of the bible - inter-manuscript contradictions.
Also good of you to point out was the Isaiah prophecy. The prophecy in Isaiah refers to almah, which means "young woman" or "maiden". While almah can mean virgin, something so specific as *virgin birth* would almost definitely use the more technical term, bethusaleh. In English, you wouldn't say, "A young woman shall conceive and give birth to a son" when you meant to talk about something as dramatic as parthenogenesis. And it is worth adding that the Israelites were not at all hesitant about using the term bethusaleh (it's not taboo) - it is used all over the bible.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 09-25-2003 5:12 PM Brian has replied

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4980 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 305 (57822)
09-25-2003 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Rei
09-25-2003 5:29 PM


Hiya,
Thank you very much for the reply.
The intention was to just give a general overview, if I was to log all the error then the file size would be too big to upload anyway!
This was a superficial treatment, but I did go into a little more thorough detail Here , which outlines some reason why the Bible is no longer considered a reliable historical source by modern day historians.
I would appreciate any other 'themes' that you can think of, or any other comments about the 'Death of Scripture.'
Cheers
Brian.

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 Message 4 by Nighttrain, posted 09-25-2003 9:38 PM Brian has replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4015 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 4 of 305 (57877)
09-25-2003 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
09-25-2003 5:47 PM


Death of Infallibility
Hi, Brian. One wonders at the foundations of bible-believing folk once we start to delve into the purity of scripture. Apart from the varieties stated ,we have the multiple versions of the 'Old Testament'compiled by Origen. Not content with comparing six existing versions in the Hexapla, I believe it is understood that Origen produced another compilation with seven and eight columns. While the Hexapla may have carried Greek and Hebrew versions for different audiences, one would imagine that there was a fair degree of difference between all of these to warrant inclusion.
Then, of course, we have the celebrated tale of Rabbi Akiva at Jamnia (circa 100A.D.), fighting for the inclusion of the Song of Songs in a volume already subject to considerable amendation.
To muddy the waters further, we find translators of the Qumran (should that be Succaca)Scrolls finding their texts 'sometimes following the Septuagint, sometimes the Masoretic Text, sometimes following neither' (Eisenmann?--my library is in storage a thousand miles away).
Even the debate between John Burgon and Westcott/Hort over the Western/Neutral/Alexandrian Texts only serves to add to the confusion when we find that those stalwarts of the RV school-Sinaiticus and Vaticanus don`t agree with each other.
To sum up, I suppose we can say purity is in the mind of the beholder :-P

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 305 (57898)
09-25-2003 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
09-25-2003 5:12 PM


quote:
There is no such thing as The Bible
What is the Bible anyway?
Most Bible?s inform the reader in their introductions that ?Bible? means ?a collection of books?, from the Greek word biblia. However, I would say that we should stop referring to ?a collection of books? as THE Bible and begin to refer to them as A Bible.
Um...pardon, but the name of the book is The Holy Bible.
Does that make as much sense of it's title to you as it does to me and a host of others?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Brian, posted 09-25-2003 5:12 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Brian, posted 09-26-2003 1:16 PM Buzsaw has replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 305 (57901)
09-26-2003 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Rei
09-25-2003 5:29 PM


quote:
Also good of you to point out was the Isaiah prophecy. The prophecy in Isaiah refers to almah, which means "young woman" or "maiden". While almah can mean virgin, something so specific as *virgin birth* would almost definitely use the more technical term, bethusaleh. In English, you wouldn't say, "A young woman shall conceive and give birth to a son" when you meant to talk about something as dramatic as parthenogenesis. And it is worth adding that the Israelites were not at all hesitant about using the term bethusaleh (it's not taboo) - it is used all over the bible.
True, but consider the following:
1. It was a prophecy of a future birth.
2. OT scriptural practice was to name the father of one having been born or to be born, not the mother. Geneologies nearly always list the fathers and sons. It would be very unusual to say a young woman was to bear a son. This would implicate adultery.
3. The NT reference to it bears out that it was a reference to a virgin birth.
4. Michah 5:2 bears out that the messiah son is to be born in Bethlehem. This and other context enforces the notion that the 'young woman' of the Isaiah text would be a virgin.

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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2323 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 7 of 305 (57904)
09-26-2003 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Buzsaw
09-26-2003 12:01 AM


Hi Buz,
I was under the impression that "Bethlehem Ephratah" referred to the clan of Bethlehem (from Caleb's second wife Ephrathah) not a town called Bethlehem.
The "prophesy" also seems to be referring to a military leader who will defeat the Assyrians. How do you get that a virgin will give birth to the Christ in Bethlehem out of this?
------------------
Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Buzsaw, posted 09-26-2003 12:01 AM Buzsaw has replied

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Joralex
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 305 (57907)
09-26-2003 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Brian
09-25-2003 5:12 PM


Your lengthy expose, Brian, proves just one thing : you've done a lot of research into material supporting your spiritual position regarding God and His Word.
I could provide ten, nay, one-hundred times the support for the validity of the AKJ 1611 Version than the 'evidence' against it that you present here - of course, I won't waste my time or yours. It is painfully evident that you have no desire for arriving at the truth in this issue, only in supporting your position.
Therefore, I'll just list two very basic sources where you may become better educated on the matter and leave it at that:
1. Article by Dr. Allan A. MacRae, "The Canon of Scripture: Can We Be Sure Which Books Are Inspired By God?"
2. Chapters 1-4 of Josh McDowell's "The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict"
The evidence is so overwhelmingly abundant and clear as to the authenticity and validity of THE Bible as the AKJ 1611 Version that it boggles my mind how people miss it... but they always find a way to do so.
"We believe whatever we want to believe." - Demosthenes, 348 B.C.
How very true for us all.
Joralex

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 Message 1 by Brian, posted 09-25-2003 5:12 PM Brian has replied

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Rei
Member (Idle past 7034 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 9 of 305 (57911)
09-26-2003 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Joralex
09-26-2003 12:28 AM


There's a thousand responses I could post to this, but I don't want diverging tangents. So, let's just pick one:
Hey Joralex, which is true: Ezra or Nehemiah?
(P.S. - you still never responded to my linguistic and interperative criticism in the homosexuality thread ).
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Joralex, posted 09-26-2003 12:28 AM Joralex has not replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4015 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 10 of 305 (57931)
09-26-2003 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Joralex
09-26-2003 12:28 AM


Josh McDowell? snuffle gag mumpf.At least you never mentioned Jim Bakker.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Joralex, posted 09-26-2003 12:28 AM Joralex has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 11 of 305 (57939)
09-26-2003 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Buzsaw
09-26-2003 12:01 AM


Isaiah 7:14
This may need a seperate thread but just to deal with Buzsaw's points (Buzsaw have you READ all of Isiah 7, with Isaiah 8 ?)
quote:
1. It was a prophecy of a future birth.
Aside from the fact that the verse can be read as indicating that the young woman *is* with child, it is clear that the birth is in the *near* future.
The child is a sign that Syria nad Isreal - who had been raiding Judah - would shortly be conquered and cease to be a threat.
quote:
2. OT scriptural practice was to name the father of one having been born or to be born, not themother. Geneologies nearly always list the fathers and sons. It would be very unusual to say a young woman was to bear a son. This would implicate adultery.
This point cofnuses NAMING the father with indicating that a woman is pregnant. It is not unusual to say that a woman would bear a child - unless you think that men normally give birth !. It would be unusual to name the mother and not thre father - but the mother is not named.
quote:
3. The NT reference to it bears out that it was a reference to a virgin birth.
The NT reference strips the verse out of context, ignoring the fact that Isaiah 7 demands that the birth must have taken place in the reign of Ahaz. If you know of a virgin birth THEN then please enlighten the rest of us.
quote:
4. Michah 5:2 bears out that the messiah son is to be born in Bethlehem. This and other context enforces the notion that the 'young woman' of the Isaiah text would be a virgin.
Can you explain this ? Aside from the fact that the birth of the child of Isaiah 7 has to have taken place generations before Micah lived (so how can Micah predict anything about it ?) What then is the connection between Isaiah 7 and Micah 5:2 - why can they not refer to completely different children ? And why would Micah's predicition - even on your reading - reinforce the idea that Isaiah weas referring to a virgin birth ? Are you telling us that all births in Bethlehem are virgin births ? Even if you assume that both were referring to Jesus and that Jesus was born of a virgin it hardly changes the fact that the Hebrew of Isaiah does not contain any strong connotations of virginity and would be a very odd way to predict a virgin birth specifically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Buzsaw, posted 09-26-2003 12:01 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4980 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 12 of 305 (58001)
09-26-2003 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Joralex
09-26-2003 12:28 AM


Hi Joralex,
Thanks for the reply.
Your lengthy expose, Brian, proves just one thing : you've done a lot of research into material supporting your spiritual position regarding God and His Word
I do not acknowledge a spiritual side to my existence, so this argument in invalid.
I could provide ten, nay, one-hundred times the support for the validity of the AKJ 1611 Version than the 'evidence' against it that you present here
It doesn't alter the fact that the 1611 KJV was an inferior text. This is a simple fact, you have chosen this as your perfect text, that is fine with me. that doesn't have any affect on my life at all. However. I know that the 1611 KJV is inferior and a lot of other people do as well, I think you are too close to the situation to see clearly.
2. Chapters 1-4 of Josh McDowell's "The New Evidence That Demands a Verdict"
This is a joke right, Josh Macdowell is your expert, sorry Joralex but you have went right down in my estimations if this is a serious claim.
The evidence is so overwhelmingly abundant and clear as to the authenticity and validity of THE Bible as the AKJ 1611 Version that it boggles my mind how people miss it... but they always find a way to do so.
So you support the KJV's assertion that Paul wrote the letter to the Hebrews?
If the 1611 was so accurate, why has there been so many subsequent versions?
You seem to miss one fatal flaw here, if the KJV is the most authenticated and accurate bible of all time then it has to be based on earlier inferior texts, if it is based on inferior texts then how can it be perfect? What Bible was accurate before the KJV of 1611?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Joralex, posted 09-26-2003 12:28 AM Joralex has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Joralex, posted 09-26-2003 2:46 PM Brian has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4980 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 13 of 305 (58002)
09-26-2003 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Nighttrain
09-25-2003 9:38 PM


Re: Death of Infallibility
Hiya,
I agree with your conclusion, as an old lecturer said to me one day regarding which Bible to use 'You pays your money, you takes your chance!'
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Nighttrain, posted 09-25-2003 9:38 PM Nighttrain has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4980 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 14 of 305 (58006)
09-26-2003 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
09-25-2003 11:44 PM


Hi Buz,
I think you should contact the publishers of the Bibles mentioned in my post, here are the bibliographical details.
Authorized Version: The Holy Bible containing the Old and New Testaments
and Apocrypha
(Cambridge: Cambridge University Press)
Good News Bible: with Deuterocanonical Books/Apocrypha. Today's English
Version
(London: British & Foreign Bible Society; Collins/Fontana 1979).
The New English Bible with the Apocrypha (Oxford: Oxford University Press, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press 1970).
The New International Version Study Bible (London: Hodder & Stoughton
1996).
The New Jerusalem Bible, Study Edition (London: Darton, Longman & Todd, new edn 1994).
The New Revised Standard Version Reference Bible with the Apocrypha (Grand Rapids: Zondervan 1995).
Revised Standard Version, ed. B. M. Metzger (New York: Oxford University Press 1965).
The Revised English Bible with Apocrypha (Oxford: Oxford University Press, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press 1989).
Revised Standard Version, containing the Old and New Testaments (New York & Glasgow: Collins 1971).
It seems that many Bible's do not claim to be 'Holy'.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Buzsaw, posted 09-25-2003 11:44 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 09-26-2003 9:35 PM Brian has not replied

Joralex
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 305 (58028)
09-26-2003 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Brian
09-26-2003 1:01 PM


I always love it when I hear this one :
"I do not acknowledge a spiritual side to my existence, so this argument in invalid."
Haven't you figured out yet that there is no "neutral" position on spirituality? IOW, it's not "Have or have not" (as you obviously believe), rather it's "I subscribe to this metaphysic or to that one". That people may escape from a metaphysical position is one of greatest myths being parroted.
To make this even clearer, you appear to subscribe to a Naturalistic metaphysic, a.k.a. Philosophical Naturalism. That, Brian, is the "spiritual side" to your existence and it is every bit as metaphysical as the beliefs held by the Snake Worshippers of Bali. Only problem is, you don't recognize it as such. But don't worry, you have lots of company in your beliefs.
P.S. I'm gonna check out the creation/evolution/ID page to see if anything interesting is going on... I'll see you guys... whenever.
Joralex

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Brian, posted 09-26-2003 1:01 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
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