Is Jesus the Circular Messiah?

Over on the Patterns and tautologies thread, Binary and I had a tiny off topic discussion about circular reasoning and the Bible.In message 29 Binary said: If I say that "the Bible is infallible and any facts which contradict it must not be true," I'm using circular reasoning--this isn't acceptable for rational people. Which is why I can't think like that anymore. Binary recognises that some people use the Bible to support the Bible and Binary realises that this is employing circular reasoning.I suggested that it is also circular reasoning to believe that Jesus is the Messiah, Lord and Saviour.Binary gave a very interesting response when s/he replied that this was correct, ”to some degree’.What I would like this thread to be about is to what degree is ”some degree’?Personally, I would argue that belief in Jesus as Messiah, Lord, and Saviour is 100% circular.I asked Binary if we could discuss this on another thread and s/he is interested.So to get the discussion started, I would state that Jesus is only the Messiah, Lord, and Saviour if you use circular reasoning.Here are a few examples from a site whose owner is overwhelmed at the amount of prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.The owner of this site claims that: There were over 360 prophecies foretold about the coming Jewish Messiah - hundreds of years before Jesus was born in Bethlehem. Jesus fulfilled all 365 of these prophecies. Of these 360+ prophecies, there are 109 that only Jesus (Yeshua) could have fulfilled. See complete list of 365 Messianic Prophecies here For the moment we can forget that there’s a great many prophecies that this site owner presents as messianic that aren’t messianic. I won’t present every prophecy because it only requires a few to make my point. But the entire list is here if anyone wishes to see them all.1. Genesis 3:15.....Seed of a woman (virgin birth).....Luke 1:35, Matthew 1:18-20
2. Genesis 3:15.....He will bruise Satan's head.....Hebrews 2:14, 1 John 3:18
3. Genesis 5:24....The bodily ascension to heaven illustrated....Mark 6:19
4. Genesis 9:26-27...The God of Shem will be the Son of Shem...Luke 3:3678. Psalms 22:14,15...Suffered agony on Calvary...Mark 15:34-37
79. Psalms 22:15........He thirsted........John 19:28
80. Psalms 22:16...They pierced His hands and His feet....John 19:34,37;20:27Isaiah 6:9-12...Blinded to Christ and deaf to His words...Acts 28:23-29
164. Isaiah 7:14...To be born of a virgin...Luke 1:35
165. Isaiah 7:14...To be Emmanuel-God with us... Matthew 1:18-23
166. Isaiah 8:8...Called Emmanuel...Matthew 28:20
167. Isaiah 8:14...A stone of stumbling, a Rock of offense... 1 Pet. 2:8
168. Isaiah 9:1,2...His ministry to begin in Galilee...Matthew 4:12-17
169. Isaiah 9:6...A child born-Humanity...Luke 1:31I would imagine that any semi-sensible person would realise that every single one of these amazing prophecies are circular, the author has just used one part of the Bible to support another part of the Bible.So, to initiate the discussion, I’d like to ask if there are any prophecies concerning Jesus Himself, not prophecies uttered by Jesus that have yet to happen, that aren’t circular?

It is ready to go but I'm not familiar with the bible threads. Where should it go?

The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy, please Ned.

Since Ned has already approved this topic could any admin please promote it?

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Not necessarily. The OP assumes that all belief is based on reasoning applied to canonical texts. It need not be based on reasoning or texts at all. Even where these are in the picture, their roles may be secondary.You may have a point to the extent that people claim they believe in Jesus because of fulfilled prophecies. Citing prophecies is a standard ritual in apologetics that never works as advertised. I have never met anyone who really believes on this basis. Rather, people believe prophecies are prophecies because they already believe in Jesus for other reasons.But that brings us to those other reasons. Here are two.

1. My dear old grandpa was good man who would never lie to me. And dear old grandpa taught me Jesus was my Messiah, Lord and Saviour. And all through my childhood I was surrounded by good, loving people who believed as grandpa believed. I experienced much together with this group--an extended family, really--and at every turn we were thanking Jesus as the one who made it all possible. Now, even today, whenever I get together with people who believe as I do, we can just feel Jesus there among us. I feel the same childlike trust I used to feel when grandpa was talking to me. These are good people, you know. They would never lie to me-especially not about something so important as my eternal existence.

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2. I'm ambling down the road one day, looking forward to a pleasant weekend of persecuting some heretics. Suddenly a light shines round about me and a being identifies himself as Jesus. I find this experience persuasive and today routinely stake my life on the assertion that Jesus is my Messiah, Lord and Saviour.

It would not be true to say belief in such cases originates in circular reasoning. It could be debated whether reasoning has much to do with it at all.___Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.

But this is circular reasoning Archer. Personally I don't think this happened to Saul at all, but imagine that it did. Saul's story comes to us solely from the Bible, thus we are back to circular reasoning.

I think Archer is referring to those who claim a personal experience of God, ex-Bible, and who subsequently come to believe the Bible to be Gods word - as a consequence of that experience.Me, for instance.

But your faith is circular too Ian.Are you telling me that you had never heard of Jesus before your personal religious experience?All mystical experiences are premeditated.Now if you were dancing about your Irish croft singing the praises of Viracocha I would be impressed.How did you know you know you had a personal experience of Jesus?

Hardly.I do believe (like you do) that what is called the external reality around me actually exists and is external. That external reality happens to include God in my case and not in yours.There is no reasoning about it as Archer points out above - for either of us. Thus there can be no circular reasoning involved. Subsequent beliefs - such as 'Jesus my saviour' are built on that starting assumption regarding the external reality - just like the world being round is build on the same starting assumption made by you.- Sure I heard about him (although I'd be embarrassed to repeat the extent of it here). So?- But you've heard and you're not a Christian. Which demonstrates that there isn't a whole lot contained in the point you would like to make about "my having heard of Christ" above. Unless you want your bread buttered on both sides that is.- It would be better described as a personal experience of God. How did I know? Well, God was able to make it so that I know. God is capable of that (per definition). Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Of course it is.You believe that you have experienced God.Your culture is deeply steeped in Christianity.Thus you make the leap in logic that the God you ”experienced’ must be Jesus.Completely circular. And from this you assume that this God is Jesus. So where do you get the idea from that Jesus is capable of saving anyone, and what is He saving them from, and what did He do that enables Him to save? So, you assume that the experience of God you had just had to be Jesus, if you were brought up in Delhi you’d have thought it was Brahman. But I was a Christian, until I realised that Jesus really was no Messiah.But there’s a fair chance if I had a PRE I’d assume it was Jesus at the helm because of my social conditioning. It is a central feature though. You fill in the dots with your prior knowledge, ”Oh I experienced God, therefore I experienced Jesus because Jesus is high profile in my society.’ Simple circular reasoning. Keep Jesus away from my bread! More circular reasoning Ian.With your mindset Ian you could convince yourself of just about anything, and this isn’t a dig at you, there are hundreds of millions of people like you, it is an interesting phenomenon.

Logically, the God I experienced can be Jesus. Culture need not have anything to do with it. Your reasoning reaches a tad too far. Not so. The point about assuming the external reality to be real was made to demonstrate that that which you know to be real (as oppose to believe to be real) is not based on reasoning. It's based on an assumption made about the reality as you perceive it. From post-salvation reading of the Bible of course (what I knew prior to that - from being "steeped in Christian culture" and all, wouldn't actually fit on the back of a postage stamp.)Before you run off supposing circles though. I don't hold that you have to believe-that-Jesus-is-your-saviour in order to be saved. I was saved first. Then I came to believe that Jesus is my Lord and Saviour. And I came to know that I was saved.You don't need to know you have been saved in order to be saved. Saved is Gods action. Knowing about it also - but probably subsequent to the event. The sequence would go something like this.1st: There was the experience of life before (lets call it) God turned up2nd: Then there was the experience of (lets call it)God turning up (even though I didn't know it was God turning up at first)3rd: Then there was the reading of the Bible and finding that the Bible described the experiences I had before and after God turned. Via parable, allegorically, via others experiences etc. But precisely for all that.Thus, I have this old collection of books (lets call it the theory) and I have experience (lets call them my observations). As with any theory, unless something comes along which better explains the observations then the current theory stands. Braham couldn't better explain the observations.Note that I reason my way to my current position. And it isn't circular reasoning. Leaving aside no-true-Christian issues, there are sufficient people who have heard and who don't believe to render your attempt to join-the-cultural-dots tentative at best. In the case where it occurs. The dots you need to join are the ones that say it did occur in my case. And does occur in all such cases. Until then the circular charge is but tentitive. Again you issue the charge to easily. God can exist. God can make himself known to a person. If he does and he did then there would be no reasoning about it from the persons perspective - the person would just know and could simply state what they know without having to say they reasoned it out.That said, I could have answered a little better. Hopefully the reasoning a little above will have given you a little to chew on before issuing the next circular charge.

Can you expand on this a bit? Who was it that you thought was doing your saving if you didn't believe in Jesus? You had to have been praying to someone/thing. What did you think you were praying to if you were not a christian? I believe the point is that personal belief in choosen deity is a byproduct of culture. I think the majority of the time this holds true. Although I will admit it is not concrete. In areas with large christian concentrations you do not have many people all of a sudden finding Mohammed. Culture dictated where the easiest resources to answer your spirtiual questions could be found. What is the step in between two and three that leads to an assumption that the bible is where to look? I say it is the culture around you or that you were raised in. Since it provides a path for the easiest way to relate your experience with like minded people. in which case there was in fact a presupposed disposition for the selection of one spiritual path as opposed to the other.

So out of the myriad of celestial beings, the one that just happened to pick you was Jesus, the predominant one of your culture. A little bit of a coincidence Ian don’t you think? So you are assuming that your external reality is real. Your assumption doesn’t make it real however. Ah here is the rub, why did you start reading the Bible? Wonderful. This evil entity of yours can save whoever He wishes and chooses not to save countless millions. I wonder why He picked you Ian? This is the circular reasoning I am on about Ian.You wouldn’t know that Jesus was your saviour, you wouldn’t even know what you were saved from or what you were guilty of UNLESS you read the Bible.I am pretty certain if you picked up the Qur'an before the Bible you'd be a Muslim. A bit pointless all this arsing about Jesus done on a piece of wood for 3 hours then isn’t it?God can save you without you believing in Jesus conquering death, a bit unbiblical ian is it not? 1st: There was the experience of life before (lets call it) God turned up

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2nd: Then there was the experience of (lets call it)God turning up (even though I didn't know it was God turning up at first) So you somehow go from these 2 event to . .. 3rd: Then there was the reading of the Bible and finding that the Bible described the experiences I had before and after God turned. Via parable, allegorically, via others experiences etc. But precisely for all that. So why did you read the Bible and not the Qur’an, or the Vedas, or the Guru Granth Sahib? I am afraid it is circular reasoning Ian, whether you realise it or not.You had an experience, you for some reason decided to read the Bible, because of your experience you believe the Bible to be true. How did you know Jesus saved you, the Bible tells you why. How did you know that there was an original sin, the Bible tells you that.
I wonder why you even need the Bible if you were saved without any knowledge of what it was about? Much of it depends on the mind of the ”hearer’. I wasn’t desperate to believe in an external entity that would look after me forever.Some people have shitty lives and Jesus is a great friend, doesn’t judge you, gives you a fresh start, this is why so many ex junkies, alcoholics, criminals, and people down on their luck come to Jesus. As I said before, it is a fact that there’s no such thing as an unmitigated mystical experience. People see and hear the gods/goddesses that they think they will see and hear. It’s a bit of a long shot Ian. So why does it follow that you then have to go to the Bible to find out all about this God? Why not just be happy that you have done nothing to be saved, whilst others devote a lifetime hoping to achieve this, and toodle along on your way?

several points:

Circular reasoning has to have a point of origin somewhere. God either exists or He doesn't. We cant assume that god exists only because we read about Him. I will admit that any religious zealot has confirmation bias.

Logically, IF God exists, there is only one character. I don't think God would be relative to culture.