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Author Topic:   Increase in Natural Disasters? Prophesied?
Asgara
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Posts: 1686
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 1 of 157 (256382)
11-02-2005 9:44 PM


This thread is a continuation of Pat Robertson on Natural Disasters in the In the News forum.

Can it be shown that natural disastes are increasing since 1948 and does this fulfill biblical prophesy and suggest the imminent end of this world.

I suggest that an increase in natural disasters must be shown before a claim can be made for the accuracy of biblical prophesy.

AbE: Moved here by AdminBen


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PaulK
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Posts: 10766
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 2 of 157 (256408)
11-03-2005 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Asgara
11-02-2005 9:44 PM


I would add that we also need a prophecy that specifically links the increase in natural disasters to the events of 1948.

Having pointed out the fact that no such prophecy existed concerning the supposed increase in hurricanes - and being accused of "not being interested in the facts" for my pains I'm just a little sensitive on the issue right now.ô


This message is a reply to:
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Lam
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 157 (256409)
11-03-2005 1:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Asgara
11-02-2005 9:44 PM


http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat8.htm

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/reports/weather-events.html

The problem is finding a reliable source of info on such a topic. And even then, the source itself doesn't tell us much about the frequencies or the levels of destructive forces of the disasters. Another problem is the range of these records. Finding anything before the 80's is a bit hard.

I think part of the problem is none of the reliable institutions that are involved specifically with handling and keeping track of natural disasters are either unwilling or unable to comment on the issue either way. We, as mere mortals, are left with bias sources telling us one way or the other.

However, for now at least it would appear that none of the major disaster organizations in the world have any worry about the climate and frequencies of earthquakes and such.

What I personally think is that the frequency of natural disasters hasn't increased. What we are seeing are actually more coverage of the disasters. Let's face it, anytime there's an earthquake somewhere nowaday CNN, FOX, and other major news networks are going to talk about nothing but that for a whole month. People who are vulnerable to suggestion (like your church going aunt that believes in the gay plague bullcrap) would start believing that the world is facing more disasters than before.

It's like sex. I don't believe it for a minute that people were all angels in the 50's. It's just that we are more aware of it nowadays.


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Phat
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Posts: 7345
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 4 of 157 (256424)
11-03-2005 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Asgara
11-02-2005 9:44 PM


I don't worry about it for a minute!
But I thought that you would like to read this link from Jan Markell. Jan Markell, founder and Director of Olive Tree Ministries, Inc. became a Christian as a young girl under the ministry of Jewish evangelist Dr. Hyman Appelman, and has been in Messianic, prophecy, or Israel-related ministry since 1975. Jan served on the original staff of the first Messianic Jewish Congregation of the Twin Cities in 1980 as well as the "International Christian Embassy, Jerusalem." She has written eight books and over 300 articles for publication, and has produced nine videos and dozens of audiotape teaching cassettes.

I introduce her into this topic only to show how the literalist evangelists think. Personally, I don't worry about any of this hype for a minute! God has other ways of getting my attention! (Like getting the Queen to slap me!) :)


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nwr
Member
Posts: 5143
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 5 of 157 (256444)
11-03-2005 7:56 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Phat
11-03-2005 5:08 AM


Re: I don't worry about it for a minute!
But I thought that you would like to read this link from Jan Markell.

Your link reminds me of 1999, when we were hearing lots of predictions of doom and gloom of the Y2K computer bug. Most of these doom and gloom predictions were coming from the fundy community, and was accompanied with much "end times" wackiness.

My reading is that the second coming was supposed to occur during the lifetimes of the original apostles. So here is my suggestion. The second coming will never occur. It was a failed prophecy, if it was ever intended to even be a prophecy. It isn't going to happen.


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Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 347 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 6 of 157 (256457)
11-03-2005 8:53 AM


My Response To NosyNed
buzsaw writes:

I've still shown that the frequency of all natural disasters of all kinds together has been on the rise in recent decades,

NosyNed writes:

I don't recall that you have shown that Earthquakes are increasing in frequency in the last 60 years. Where did you do that?

Go back and read, Ned. We've gone over that. To cap what we discussed, it was agreed that earthquakes were one kind of disaster which has been more stable in frequency, but I maintained that the question was whether all disasters in conglomerate were on the increase, as per the thread OP.

NosyNed writes:

You're going to have to stop saying you've shown something and deliver the actual information and answer Schraf's concerns before you will have actually shown anything. Saying that you think you have shown something accomplishes nothing.

As is so common with you moderators here, the sky's the limit when it comes your tolerance of your own ideological friends, like when jar tries to go off topic into billions of years, and Shrafinator wants to go off topic, et al. Now you're admonishingly moderating me, falsely implying that I've shown nothing, whatsoever, in that whole long thread. This kind of stuff has a lot to do with the problems which arise with people like Faith and me on this board.


The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw
Replies to this message:
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 Message 12 by Asgara, posted 11-03-2005 11:10 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
Buzsaw
Member (Idle past 347 days)
Posts: 9158
From: new york usa
Joined: 03-14-2003


Message 7 of 157 (256460)
11-03-2005 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Asgara
11-02-2005 9:44 PM


Natural Disaster Frequency
Asgara writes:

Can it be shown that natural disastes are increasing since 1948 and does this fulfill biblical prophesy and suggest the imminent end of this world.

Imminent is not quite the word here, imo. I believe the terminology of both the OP and my statements were that the time was beginning to emerge for the end of the present age of this world and before the prophesied 2nd advent of Jesus and his millenial kingdom coming to the planet. I believe the end of the world phrase was used in the OP, but as I recall without going to it, a future for the world was implied.


The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past. buzsaw
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 6274
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 8 of 157 (256464)
11-03-2005 9:22 AM


Prophecy
I tried reading the last thread but I didn't find any references to the actual prophecy. So what/who has prophesized an increasing frequency of natural disasters starting from 1948?
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PaulK
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Posts: 10766
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 9 of 157 (256465)
11-03-2005 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Modulous
11-03-2005 9:22 AM


Re: Prophecy
Nobody. Buz tried to evade the issue with his usual nasty habits but that's what it came down to.
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Phat
Member
Posts: 7345
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 10 of 157 (256469)
11-03-2005 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Buzsaw
11-03-2005 8:53 AM


Re: My Response To NosyNed
Buzsaw writes:

I maintained that the question was whether all disasters in conglomerate were on the increase, as per the thread OP.

Apparantly, Ned is unimpressed with your statistics. Lets assume, for a moment, that a correlation can be drawn and implied by statistics.
  • How do we know that record keeping is just not improving?
  • How do we know if the increase is part of a short term trend (as can be seen with Hurricanes) or whether it is a definite permanent increase?

  • Are you starting from the assumption that the Bible is the way that things will be? (If so, that is OK>Just admit it.)

    Oh...and one other thing: Quit b*tching! This persecution complex is getting old!


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  • jar
    Member
    Posts: 24631
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 11 of 157 (256480)
    11-03-2005 10:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 6 by Buzsaw
    11-03-2005 8:53 AM


    Questions buz needs to answer.

    1. Natural Disasters since 1948 are increasing compared to ....?
    2. The Biblical Prophecy that says Natural Disasters will increase is found at .... Book, ... Chapter, ... Verse?

    Until buz can answer those two questions there really isn't anything to discuss.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
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    Asgara
    Member
    Posts: 1686
    From: Wisconsin, USA
    Joined: 05-10-2003


    Message 12 of 157 (256488)
    11-03-2005 11:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 6 by Buzsaw
    11-03-2005 8:53 AM


    Re: My Response To NosyNed
    but I maintained that the question was whether all disasters in conglomerate were on the increase,

    Ok, buz please supply your evidence of an increase in ALL natural disasters. I haven't seen it yet. The only possible support you may have linked to is your news/livescience links that referred to the CRED database. I played around with that database and prior to the 1960s at least, a large portion of data is missing. You can not make a comparison with only partial data in one dataset.

    Jar's referral is perfectly acceptable. If an established cycle or cycles is shown than an upsurge in activity is normal and predictable, and not some new phenomenon related to biblical prophesy.

    This kind of stuff has a lot to do with the problems which arise with people like Faith and me on this board.

    I agree. I don't agree that it is biased moderation. The problem stems from two totally different mindsets and what kind of data someone will accept. One side seems quite willing to accept reports on data from anywhere that reinforces their views and to not dig too deeply into what the actual data says, while the other side is use to using the actual data themselves and not relying on someone else's interpretation. But that is off topic for this thread.


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    Mespo
    Member (Idle past 1969 days)
    Posts: 158
    From: Mesopotamia, Ohio, USA
    Joined: 09-19-2002


    Message 13 of 157 (256502)
    11-03-2005 11:56 AM


    More world population to get whacked
    A table from www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldpop.html showed the world population in 1950 to be about 2.5 billion. In 2005 it is estimated at 6.4 billion. So, simple arithmetic shows an increase of 3.9 BILLION potential victims since 1950 of fire, flood, famine, earthquakes, tsunamies, hurricanes, tornadoes and appalling auto depreciation rates.

    You don't have to increase the frequency of disasters to kill more people. They're already there.

    (:raig


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    Buzsaw
    Member (Idle past 347 days)
    Posts: 9158
    From: new york usa
    Joined: 03-14-2003


    Message 14 of 157 (256598)
    11-03-2005 8:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 11 by jar
    11-03-2005 10:46 AM


    Re: Questions buz needs to answer.
    jar writes:

    Natural Disasters since 1948 are increasing compared to ....?


    So far as I am aware the thread was not a comparison. It was about whether they are increasing as per Biblical prophecies in the latter days.

    jar writes:

    The Biblical Prophecy that says Natural Disasters will increase is found at .... Book, ... Chapter, ... Verse?

    Zephenaiah chapter one, the whole chapter very vivid. Joel 1 and 2, Revelation 8:13-16, the whole chapter 16 of Revelation, Luke 21:25-28. These are some and there's others.


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    jar
    Member
    Posts: 24631
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 1.6


    Message 15 of 157 (256612)
    11-03-2005 9:10 PM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Buzsaw
    11-03-2005 8:50 PM


    Re: Questions buz needs to answer.
    So far as I am aware the thread was not a comparison.

    I'm sorry buz, but you cannot say something is increasing unless you have something to compare it to. Mybe that will help you understand why most folk consider Robertson, Falwell, Phelps, Dobson, Scott and the vast majority of televangelists idiots. Complete idiots. Or perhaps just con men.

    Zephenaiah? You have got to be kidding me. For those that like to read along, here is a link to the first Chapter of Zephenaiah. Read all three chapters, they are short. It's talking about events from nearly 2500-3000 years ago.

    Joel? Again, it's short, read all three chapters. It's a general lament and song of praise. It is not prophetic and certainly has nothing to do with today.

    I've already dealt with your assertions from Revelations.

    SO basically buz, not one of those says anything about increasing natural disasters.

    Please, see if you can find something that supports your assertion.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
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