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Author Topic:   If the Bible is metaphorical then perhaps so is the God of the Bible
CarlinKnew
Junior Member (Idle past 5420 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 05-21-2009


Message 1 of 243 (509438)
05-21-2009 6:31 PM


To those who only take certain parts of the Bible literally, how do you determine where the metaphors end and the facts begin? Maybe God Himself is simply a metaphor for something else like the forces of nature.

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-22-2009 8:58 AM CarlinKnew has replied
 Message 20 by kbertsche, posted 05-23-2009 1:41 AM CarlinKnew has replied
 Message 58 by jaywill, posted 05-26-2009 9:28 AM CarlinKnew has replied
 Message 168 by mike the wiz, posted 06-02-2009 6:07 AM CarlinKnew has not replied
 Message 220 by ochaye, posted 07-18-2009 8:54 AM CarlinKnew has not replied

  
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Message 2 of 243 (509510)
05-22-2009 8:26 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4930 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
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Message 3 of 243 (509519)
05-22-2009 8:52 AM


whats your interpretation of Metaphor???

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 4 of 243 (509523)
05-22-2009 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CarlinKnew
05-21-2009 6:31 PM


We should note that there is no-one who takes every part of the Bible literally.
Then general rule would seem to be: when you come across something you know to be untrue, decide that it was meant to be a metaphor. You can, of course, reduce the frequency with which you're obliged to do this by knowing as little as possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-21-2009 6:31 PM CarlinKnew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-22-2009 9:13 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
CarlinKnew
Junior Member (Idle past 5420 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 05-21-2009


Message 5 of 243 (509529)
05-22-2009 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Peg
05-22-2009 8:52 AM


met⋅a⋅phor
  /ˈmɛtəˌfɔr, -fər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [met-uh-fawr, -fer] Show IPA
—noun
1. a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in A mighty fortress is our God. Compare mixed metaphor, simile (def. 1).
2. something used, or regarded as being used, to represent something else; emblem; symbol. (dictionary.com)

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CarlinKnew
Junior Member (Idle past 5420 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 05-21-2009


Message 6 of 243 (509531)
05-22-2009 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dr Adequate
05-22-2009 8:58 AM


Bible Literalists at least claim to take the entire Bible literally.
How do you decide what you know to be untrue?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-22-2009 8:58 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-22-2009 9:26 AM CarlinKnew has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 7 of 243 (509532)
05-22-2009 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by CarlinKnew
05-22-2009 9:13 AM


Bible Literalists at least claim to take the entire Bible literally.
But they don't.
How do you decide what you know to be untrue?
Comparison of statements in the Bible with reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-22-2009 9:13 AM CarlinKnew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-22-2009 9:33 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
CarlinKnew
Junior Member (Idle past 5420 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 05-21-2009


Message 8 of 243 (509534)
05-22-2009 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dr Adequate
05-22-2009 9:26 AM


Most Christians take the story of the resurrection literally. How could they have come to that conclusion by comparing statements in the Bible with reality?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-22-2009 9:26 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-22-2009 9:59 AM CarlinKnew has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 9 of 243 (509539)
05-22-2009 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by CarlinKnew
05-22-2009 9:33 AM


Most Christians take the story of the resurrection literally. How could they have come to that conclusion by comparing statements in the Bible with reality? Most Christians take the story of the resurrection literally. How could they have come to that conclusion by comparing statements in the Bible with reality?
I did not say that the things people take literally are things that they have compared with reality and found to be correct, I said that the things people take metaphorically are things that they have compared with reality and found to be incorrect.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-22-2009 9:33 AM CarlinKnew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-22-2009 10:12 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
CarlinKnew
Junior Member (Idle past 5420 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 05-21-2009


Message 10 of 243 (509543)
05-22-2009 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Dr Adequate
05-22-2009 9:59 AM


That's basically the same thing, unless they pick and choose certain parts of the Bible to compare with reality and turn a blind eye to other parts.
I'll rephrase then: how do Christians decide which parts of the Bible are true?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-22-2009 9:59 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Theodoric, posted 05-22-2009 11:08 AM CarlinKnew has replied
 Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 05-22-2009 11:25 AM CarlinKnew has replied
 Message 15 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-22-2009 3:00 PM CarlinKnew has replied
 Message 21 by John 10:10, posted 05-24-2009 8:42 AM CarlinKnew has replied
 Message 34 by Peg, posted 05-25-2009 7:10 AM CarlinKnew has replied

  
Theodoric
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Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 11 of 243 (509549)
05-22-2009 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by CarlinKnew
05-22-2009 10:12 AM


CarlinKnew writes:
how do Christians decide which parts of the Bible are true?
By choosing whatever fits into their worldview or the dogma of the particular church they are an adherent to.
There is no rhyme or reason. They will claim that things are self-evident, but I still have yet to have a christian adequately explain what is "truth" and what is metaphor.
I keep on getting the same old tired argument that if I believed I would know, or that I just don't want to know. They act like I am the one with the problem if I do not take things on "faith". Whose faith am I supposed to accept anyway?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-22-2009 10:12 AM CarlinKnew has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 12 of 243 (509550)
05-22-2009 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by CarlinKnew
05-22-2009 10:12 AM


Doctrine
quote:
I'll rephrase then: how do Christians decide which parts of the Bible are true?
Dogma, doctrine, and tradition determine the truth of the Bible for some Christians.
Others use reason to understand the reality behind the compilation of the Bible and the purpose of the writers.
Then there are others who ride the fence and go with the flow.
Because most (I think I'm safe in saying most) Christians don't really read the Bible as a whole. The information they receive is fed to them through sermons and Bible study classes that aren't looking at the simple reading of the text, but through, what the Jews call, D'rash.
This is a teaching or exposition or application of the P'shat and/or Remez. (In some cases this could be considered comparable to a "sermon.") For instance, Biblical writers may take two or more unrelated verses and combine them to create a verse(s) with a third meaning.
There are three rules to consider when utilizing the d'rash interpretation of a text:
1. A drash understanding can not be used to strip a passage of its p'shat meaning, nor may any such understanding contradict the p'shat meaning of any other scripture passage. As the Talmud states, "No passage loses its p'shat."
2. Let scripture interpret scripture. Look for the scriptures themselves to define the components of an allegory.
3. The primary components of an allegory represent specific realities. We should limit ourselves to these primary components when understanding the text.
IOW, they've used selective verses to teach their own point or doctrine instead of teaching what the ancient authors were trying to teach their own people.
I feel that Christians have not been routinely taught or encouraged to read the writings in the Bible as whole stories.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-22-2009 10:12 AM CarlinKnew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-22-2009 11:44 AM purpledawn has replied

  
CarlinKnew
Junior Member (Idle past 5420 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 05-21-2009


Message 13 of 243 (509554)
05-22-2009 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Theodoric
05-22-2009 11:08 AM


I've run into the same problem many times. In this thread I'm hoping to understand their rhyme or reason.

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CarlinKnew
Junior Member (Idle past 5420 days)
Posts: 29
Joined: 05-21-2009


Message 14 of 243 (509555)
05-22-2009 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by purpledawn
05-22-2009 11:25 AM


Re: Doctrine
That is possible, although I've spoken to Christians who claim to have studied the Bible comprehensively and are still somehow able to differentiate between the metaphor and the literal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 05-22-2009 11:25 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 15 of 243 (509578)
05-22-2009 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by CarlinKnew
05-22-2009 10:12 AM


That's basically the same thing, unless they pick and choose certain parts of the Bible to compare with reality and turn a blind eye to other parts.
Well, no it isn't. Because there are certain statements in the Bible (most of them, I should say) with which there is nothing external to the Bible to compare them. The proposition that (for example) Jacob had twelve sons, cannot be compared with any evidence external to the Bible to test it, and can therefore be taken literally rather than metaphorically.
I'll rephrase then: how do Christians decide which parts of the Bible are true?
As I've suggested, by default: they think it's true except where they have to think otherwise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-22-2009 10:12 AM CarlinKnew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by CarlinKnew, posted 05-22-2009 4:06 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 203 by greentwiga, posted 06-27-2009 2:15 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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