Did Jesus Christ do away the laws in the OT? I think Christians invented the concept Jesus did away with the old laws to distance themselves from one of the many 623 strange, violent, meaningless or otherwise vile laws of the OT. I am sure many of you will agree by today’s standards many of the laws in the OT are unacceptable. I can’t imagine anyone really believeing their wife needs to be put in the shed because she bleeds. With the same difficulty I try to imagine people wanting to stone their children, keep slaves and murder pigeons. Many of these laws are in my opinion stupid. I have long believed many Christians felt the same. They clearly understood that if they followed such laws(as gods word) it would be very difficult to win converts or to keep people involved.
However, these laws – no matter how strange are in the bible. The bible is gods book. I say who are we, if we love god, to not obey the laws of the bible. The bible for most Christians is something to be believed.
I do not think the Judge would release me after I killed a few homosexuals and justified it using the bible - possibly one or two would?
However, my wife like many other wives refuses to go out to the shed when she bleeds. Although I try to keep slaves they always escape. No matter how many times I tell my wife and slaves I am doing this is in accordance of the scriptures they just do not seem to care.
I can imagine many wives objected to the sexism in the Torah. I can imagine many Christians objected to these laws. Because of this Christians needed to create a way to do away with the old law. Jesus was used for this purpose. I do not understand this doctrine – JC doing away with old law? Can someone please explain it to me? This has been a road block, a reason I have been against religion. I think Christians just invent things. I base this on the following. . . . The bible clearly says it is not ment to be changed. It clearly demonstrates law is law. Am I way off?
Again my opinion is Christians(being good people?) knew the laws were evil. However, they needed to invent a reason so they did not need to follow them. They somehow claim Christ did away with old law. I do not understand this. Using the bible can you demonstrate how Christ does this? Although this is more a question I am happy to debate the topic and use such verses as evidence old law still stands:
Matthew 5:18-19, Matthew 5:17, Timothy 3:16 & 2 Peter 20-21 NAB)
I know very little about what's in the bible, but from what I understand/know, jesus came up with two laws that trump all others.
The Golden Rule Love thy neighbor as you love God (or something to that effect) (oh, and render unto ceaser's what is ceaser's, render unto God God's)
I don't think they (christians) used jesus to get rid of the old laws. You have to remember, when the gospels were being written, slavery was okay. So were a lot of other things that we might just object to nowadays. So your argument that they used him to get rid of "morally defunct" laws fails due to the culture of the time.
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However, my wife like many other wives refuses to go out to the shed when she bleeds. Although I try to keep slaves they always escape. No matter how many times I tell my wife and slaves I am doing this is in accordance of the scriptures they just do not seem to care.
I can imagine many wives objected to the sexism in the Torah. I can imagine many Christians objected to these laws.
this is an anachronistic view. even the new testament is extremely mysognystic.
quote:1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
jesus seems a little out of place in his treatment of women (you know, treating them like human beings), but the synoptic-gospel-jesus plays a relatively small role in the new testament. and even then, he explicitly states that he does not abolish the law.
Did Jesus Christ do away the laws in the OT? I think Christians invented the concept Jesus did away with the old laws to distance themselves from one of the many 623 strange, violent, meaningless or otherwise vile laws of the OT.
To put it simply, Jesus didn't do away with a single Law, rather, Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law-- essentially, He IS the Law. But this isn't an easy answer. I will support this by quoting from the Bible.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." -Matthew 5:17-18
Jesus here is saying that the Law good and that what was transcribed by Moses is accurate. In Hebrew, He flatly states that not even a "jot" or a "tittle" will pass away until His advent. A jot is the smallest character in the Hebrew alphabet and a title is like an apostrophe or like the crossing of a "t" or the dotting of an "i." That's how thorough and adamant He is about the Halacha (Jewish Law).
"Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." -Matthew 5:19-20
Jesus' audience here is Jewish, and they are required to follow all 613 Laws. In the next verses, He gives a discourse on murder and adultery. Notice the context He uses. He isn't changing the Law, He is actually clarifying it, as apparently the meaning behind it had become muddled.
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment... You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away." -Matthew 5:21-21 and 27-29
Paul, formerly a Pharisee, someone highly trained in the Halacha, gives his exegesis on the Law and how we are to view it in relation to Jesus.
"All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares." -Romans 2:12-16
As you see, Paul is stating that Gentiles (non-Jews) are not under the same law as Jews are and were never required to follow the dietary laws, and whatnot. He explicitly states that they have become "a law unto themselves" because God has written His Law already in heart of mankind. This is why absolute morality is taught. There is a 'natural' consensus on many things. And Paul here is saying that the conscience of a person will bear witness to that individual and will instruct him when he is doing wrong.
This makes perfect sense when we see the married man trying to stealthily enter the porn shop. Why so covert? Because he knows what he is doing is wrong, and his conscience is screaming at him.
Paul nexts goes onto describe how Jews must come to Christ in relation to the Law.
"Now you, if you call yourself a Jew; if you rely on the law and brag about your relationship to God; if you know his will and approve of what is superior because you are instructed by the law; if you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." -Romans 2:17-21
Paul is saying, why brag about the Law if you can't even keep it yourself? Don't you know that if you break one commandment that you've broken them all? Paul goes on to explain ho the Law, by itself, is nothing. Its a Teacher; its a Schoolmaster: its a Guide-- but there is no life in the Law alone. Rather, it is by faith in grace that we understand why the Law is important. And that is what gives the Law, life.
[i]"For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."[i] -Romans 6:14-18
"Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet." But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.
Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!" -Romans 7:7-25
See, this where Christians and Jews differ. Jews see Christians not caring about God's Law, and Christians see Jews as going through, stale, ritualistic motions that completely misses the point of the Law.
Indeed, I know quite a bit of Jews who observe every dietary law, and yet, commit fornication without batting an eyelash. Their priorities have become obscured through mindless repetition, rather than a focus on God Himself.
Perhaps this is why Jesus said,
[i]"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them... You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the [b]more important matters of the law[b]— justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former."[/i] -Matthew 23
Faith is not a pathetic sentiment, but robust, vigorous confidence built on the fact that God is holy love. You cannot see Him just now, you cannot fully understand what He's doing, but you know that you know Him." -Oswald Chambers
True. When Yeshua said 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind,' and 'Love your neighbor as yourself,' he was quoting. Both statements had already long been canonized.
Neither did he invent the idea of quoting the two as a summary of the Law and Prophets. The idea of 'the greatest commandment'--or 'how to recite the complete body of Scripture while standing on one foot'--had already been much discussed among rabbis. This formulation is attributed to a teacher--Hillel, if memory serves--who lived before Yeshua.
'Love your enemies', though, is different. That's original with Yeshua by all accounts and, even today, radical. Still, the idea just carries forward the instruction to love one's neighbor. Yeshua just includes our enemies among our neighbors.
And enemies tend to be neighbors. Like, Germany and France prior to the cold war.Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
quote: So your argument that they used him to get rid of "morally defunct" laws fails due to the culture of the time
Follow me here. I do not think that is my argument. I will tell you the walls my personal research and experience has caused me to build over the last 5 years. This is lengthy because I need you to understand the process my mind takes me through and how I arrived where I am!
If Jar were here he might call this trite drivel - like he used to in chat. I assure you filling up the forum with trite drivel is not my intention. I am fairly confident NJ answered part "X" of my question, "Why do christians no longer follow old law."
quote:(christians) used jesus to get rid of the old laws.
Nor do I is it acceptable to retract that comment? I need you to PM me in private if you have difficulty following here - I will explain.
It is my opinion until 300 years ago 98% of the christian population felt the bible was the error free word of God. They felt he played a direct role in writing this book and stamped it with his seal of approval. They also assumed a clear cut picture of creation was listed in the bible. I have quite a few books on my shelf from 1800-1952 that say the flood is a fact. I've heard in several states until the 1980s the bible was read and 'taught' in public school. I've heard quite a few people tell me it was once believed the earth was the center of the universe. I've heard more people tell me that witches had to be burned and tortured. Can you follow? I've read once a very very famous church father said, "I believe it because it is impossible". Although this reference was to Jesus I will still call upon it here. In high school I am confident I've read numerous examples where puritans or other religious people called upon the scripture to justify their need for slavery. I could call upon thousands of examples I have came across which demonstrate to me christians (98-99%) accepted every word in the bible as true and error free. I am very receptive to being proven wrong.
WHY SHOULDN'T THEY? If a god exists and god is omnipotent , omniscience and as well omnibenolevenant he had to have played a hand(THE HAND). God knew this book was going to exist - he had to. God allowed it to exist. If god does in fact exist this is his autobiography, correct? God clearly interacted with people 2,000 ago - the bible tells me so. People to this degree had an opportunity to interview god. If you can talk with something, interact with it and see it in the flesh, well, this strengthens rapport. I am a recruiter - I make cold calls all day long. I am damn good at what I do. However, I assure you in person I could be 60% better. My point those who were allowed personal interaction with God wrote this book. God knew they were going to write it. God knew what it was going to say. God knew all the changes it would go through from 1500 BCE - 2007 CE. GOD KNEW – to argue this point is to challenge god is it not? (I touch on this later. If god did not write it and it is just a book of the times how do we know anything in it is true? How do we know which parts are true?)
So, before it was ever written god knew. The majority of the world before 200-300 years ago was 100% convinced this was the absolute truth without any question.
BUT, but, but - the bible contains some vile stuff. The god of the OT was a ruthless, shameless, vengeful being. Worship him, bow down or there was an AXE to be grinded (in your head). Anyone recall the punishment for disobeying any of the 10 commandments (well 9 of them?) - go ahead let us know. Sounds like Beth. I will also site some other atrocities of the bible in closing. One I'd like to consider now is the hardening of the pharos’s heart and the plagues. God is all powerful, all seeing, all knowing and can do anything. He could have done anything, anything. I’ve even seen Christian attempts to justify it. The fact remains he hardened the heart to make everyone suffer he also choose to plague the earth. He killed the fish! He killed the livestock and other living innocent animals. Then what did the brutal beast do? MURDERED EVERY 1st born.
These had nothing to do with morals of 'olden days'. The bible until recently was Gods word. God smiled upon its writing. God knew about its writing. The people who wrote it had gods blessing, interaction and approval. In many cases the bible seems to imply god assisted in the writing - at very least the writers were under this impression. They would know - they had better rapport. I argue if the bible is not a timeless book like the majority of gods followers/readers have thought since it first came into play it looses much of its meaning. Before you think to comment please finish reading. If you feel the bible is just a book of times and the evil is justified because of morals of the day. I think then you agree with me. . . .
Now a days if an author writes lies about a person in their autobiography the person sues. The person demands the work be retracted, changed, stopped or apologized for - RIGHTFULLY SO. Slander or character deformation is bad. . . I do not know god. Nor have I ever know any gods. However, I must assume a god would think the same way. God knew well in advance all the evil which would be justified using the bible (let's not digress I know there is good too - I am not an idiot, stay with me). If god did not like it he should have sued. God did not act.
How could so many people have believed a lie for so long? 89% of the living world, I bet? I know I know band wagon fallacy, you caught me. Do you understand where I am coming from though?
The bible is free of contradiction or it is not. The bible is error free or it is not. The bible is full of evil (I will prove this in a moment) or it is not. The bible is a book of the times or it is timeless. The bible is a good place for moral values or it is not. The bible is the word of god or it is not. We are talking about god here not an average 'theory'. There is little room for error. The steaks are hot and the stakes are high – are they not?
If you disregard the laws as morals of the day and not timeless laws how do you know Jesus rose from the dead? If you regard the burning bush as 'just a story' how do you know 'Israel' was enslaved in Egypt?
You do not - you can not. God knew, god allowed and it was so! The bible is something or it is nothing.
HOWEVER, Christians are not idiots, right? They recognized much of the violence, hate, vile behavior and down right rottenness in the OT. They needed a way to distance themselves from it. One way is to simply ignore it - never talk about it. Another way is to try to justify it. The problem there is each individual and each denomination has their own spin own way. HOW DO WE KNOW WHICH IS RIGHT?. Or similar to the first example the final way is to ‘cherry pick’ verses, sayings and sentences. I think this is called discounting the bad, correct?
There are numerous verses NJ and I will discuss over the next few days which if taken word for word demand the bible not be changed - I think. They demand the law is still 100% effective. However, intelligent christians realized by any human moral standard much of the OT was unacceptable. They needed to find a method in which much of the OT could be wiped out or ignored. Jesus was this way. Jesus was not invented for this purpose. However, he was used for this purpose.
Now taking it to the extreme we have people like Jar (they are the very small minority) saying the bible isn't too important. He recognizes the bible is full of contradictions, evil, impossible things and vile behaviour. He simply dismisses it altogether – what could be safer? The more moderate example like Purple Dawn establishes rules for reading the bible. This part is untrue, this part is true, this part might be true, read about this part with an open mind. . . WHAT sort of BS is that? That is known as demystifying, I think. It recently became very popular because science and technology has demonstrated much of the bible is impossible. *Back to a point if I may. I think people who wrote the bible were convinced they were writing gods word and it was true. – possibly they were. If this is the case people who established all these rules for reading the bible are in for a special treat, “Gods Wraith”! ** I know, I know they feel it is their faith. The problem is one person is right and the other is wrong. Faith based on this seems to be nothing more than a hopeful dreamy opinion which is often based on the situation or needs of an individual. Faith is not and it must not be off limits from attack. Faith is not above or beyond reason.
Is was once believed by all god lived in the sky. Until man traveled above the clouds the theist used the argument was, "PROVE IT! YOU CANT!". It was once believed that hell was below our feet! The argument was prove it! You can't! It was once believed the earth was the center of the universe. You know the argument? Well, we have proved it so religion retreats into the veil of faith. We(non theists) have demonstrated much of the bible if taken literal is drivel, silly and childish. So, theists dismiss, invent methods to read it properly, ignore parts of it or jump through hoops to justify it. The problem is these hoops and methods are never static. They depend upon the individual and the mood of the pastor at that moment.
44% of Christians in this country still accept the bible as the error free word of God. I say with great confidence they have not read it. The others have read it. They understand much of the bible is too far fetched to be true. So, just like JC was used to rid themselves of laws which were too far fetched special methods of reading the bible must be introduced.
I wonder why that is really necessary? For the better part of human existence (according to many theists) Christians simply accepted the bible as true. If there is a God why shouldn't the?
If this law here is no longer to be followed how about this law? If this is a parable here left up to individual interpretation how about this one? If this was a BAD mistranslation how about this? If god is real. . . GOD IS GOD. His law is to be followed and obeyed, period - like it or not. EVERY LAW to the T.
Christians go through insane lengths to attempt to rescue their book from the bible. More often than not they use the saying, "you can't disprove it, it must be true". Much has been disproved, this is true. Intelligent theists must now admit much of the bible is a story. Theists everywhere must admit god does not dwell in the clouds.
So, in closing I thank NJ for his response. I will review it and reply to it. However, can ya'll see my point? Why I am confused or made a smidgen mad?
Do you see my point? This is a very big reason I am troubled by religion. There are 500 demonitions of Christianity. All with their own spin and take. Come-on give me a break. Everyone has their own personal method of attempting to justify the filth of the bible. If someone can explain this to me I may be receptive to lowering a wall or two atheism has created. For your reading pleasure from evilbible.com some of the filth:
Genesis 22:9 & 10 “And they came to the place which God had told him of and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.” It matters not that god let Abraham get out of murdering Isaac. To put a knife up to your son’s throat is child abuse.
I Kings 3:24-25 “And the king said, Bring me a sword. And they brought a sword before the king. And the king said, Divide the living child in two, and give half to the one, and half to the other." This test was of course given to see who the real mother of the child was. Christians view this king as a wise man.
Proverbs 13:24, 19:18, 22:15, 23:13-14 & 29:15 God commands repeatedly that you beat your children. -------------------------
In the book of Lev and EX examples of this nature are far too common. Shall I present them so you can counter them and make excuses. They are what they are! Sexism, racism, violent, immoral, evil, rude and spiteful
Please keep any response to this message in line with the OP. AdminPD
quote:Love your enemies', though, is different. That's original with Yeshua by all accounts and, even today, radical. Still, the idea just carries forward the instruction to love one's neighbor. Yeshua just includes our enemies among our neghibor
Are you mad sir? This is off topic first. However, since a ref did not jump in and call you off sides I will. Jesus Christ stated in clear words bring his enemies before him and slay them in his presence. Jesus Christ clearly said anyone who did not follow him to the father would perish. Jesus Christ said he is the Sword - he come not in peace. Jesus Christ said he would tear families apart.
The message of Jesus Christ was very clear if you do not read it through cherry picking. His message was rid yourself of all earthly posessions. Follow Me, Follow Me, Follow Me! The end is here(not really 'near') The end is here. He said on many occasions the end of times would be seen in the days of his followers. If you did not choose to worship him your punishment was simple - yet painful. Death by fire! Not once or twice but over and over and over and over - the dead gnash their teeth!
The majority of the messages Jesus taught were midrash of the OT. Those which were not had direct roots to pagan and otherwise egyptian mythology. If you wish to discuss this let's do so under another topic - not in my thread though.
Jesus had no new ideas. Do you know what a cynic sage is? They were preaching the wisdom of Christ well before his time. Every since 10,000 - 1,500 CE said love their god with their heart, soul, mind. There was nothing unique or special about Jesus Christ. It may be up for discussion if he was special. However, he surely was not unique. The lovey dovey concepts predated the man by a long shot.
Anyhow - let's stick on topic ok, BOSS? Thanks!
--Tony OFF TOPIC (STOP SIGN LOGO PD ALWAYS HOLDS UP)
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message or continue in this vein. AdminPD
Hi Purple, Please excuse Gov Pilate. My time machine malfunctioned, so I was rather late in coming to this forum. And, one more thing. Why do my cheeks appear swolen and my nostrils enlarge whenever I introduce my self? Ha ha ha. :=) :=)
Seriously and on to your beautiful question:
Did Jesus Christ do away the laws in the OT? I think Christians invented the concept Jesus did away with the old laws to distance themselves from one of the many 623 strange, violent, meaningless or otherwise vile laws of the OT. I am sure many of you will agree by today’s standards many of the laws in the OT are unacceptable.
Here is my take: Mat 5:17-18. Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. Col 2:14-17. Paul said that Christ's death cancelled the decrees against Christians.
At first it would appear that these are contradictory. But, it is not. Romans 7:6,7 speaks of the SPIRIT (intent) of the law and the LETTERS of the law.
So, harmonizing these citations we come to the conclusion that God's laws (just like human laws) consist of 2 things the Intention (or spirit) and the letters ( or details). What Christ's death abolished was the letters. But, the intention of God's laws as written in the OT remains forever
It's like human laws actually.
And, hey please judge laws according to the standards at the time they were made to apply not centuries later. Even human laws recognize this dictum.
Finally, you should believe me. I am not Governor for nothing. See in my wisdom I was able to wash my hand from blood guilt. Damn, my twin brod he got me into trouble for a mere 30 pcs of silver.
quote:So, harmonizing these citations we come to the conclusion that God's laws (just like human laws) consist of 2 things the Intention (or spirit) and the letters ( or details). What Christ's death abolished was the letters. But, the intention of God's laws as written in the OT remains forever
I do not understand? Can you speak slower? Possibly tell me how you would tell your 8 year old daughter.