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Author Topic:   Show me why Sunday is the Day
sdachristian
Junior Member (Idle past 4287 days)
Posts: 3
Joined: 01-19-2007


Message 1 of 28 (379355)
01-23-2007 8:52 PM


Alright, I will tell you one thing, I have never read once in the bible anything that has ever told me not to keep the sabbath. Which is the seventh day. Which is saturday.

Give me the reasons why the pope has such great power he can change it to sunday or why christs resurrection would possibly mean that sunday should be his day of worship. Also, if you look at that, you can see that he did not resurrect on saturday, but waited over that day so he did not have to do it on the sabbath and actually waited til sunday.

Now, please remember, if you can give me evidence enough to tell me why we have the reason to change the holy day god made on saturday to sunday rather than going on saturday, I have an open mind. I am willing to change if you can give me the reasons why. I want to do what the bible says, what God's word is, not what somebody else tells me or what i think would be easier.

I have studied this subject but I am still confused how you can get anything such as sunday out of the bible, and I was wondering what your theories happen to be?


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Message 2 of 28 (379356)
01-23-2007 8:54 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 3966 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 3 of 28 (379380)
01-23-2007 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sdachristian
01-23-2007 8:52 PM


sdachristian writes:

I have studied this subject but I am still confused how you can get anything such as sunday out of the bible, and I was wondering what your theories happen to be?

I don't mean to be a spoil-sport, but honestly, the good ol' Wiki gives a decent explanation of this. The answer is not so much about religion, but just about customs and traditions.

In summary, early christians up until the 3-5 centuries, held the Sabbath in the traditional Jewish way, and ALSO had a day of celebration afterwards to honor the Resurrection. The symbolism went beyond Sunday being merely the day on which Jesus rose, to also a symbolism of the start of the 'new' creation in Jesus, as in , the 8th day.

I believe in some non-Jewish areas the idea of the Saturday Sabbath was not a big deal. Eventually, the Emperor Constantine declared Sunday a day of rest like Saturday. While some Popes likewise held that it was good to celebrate Sunday, they never denied Saturday as being important to my knowledge.

I am not sure things have changed so terribly much. We still have a Sunday morning breakfast, derived from the times when everyone fasted the day before church, and possibly derived from even older times when they fasted on Saturdays.

And of course, we still have a two-day weekend, though it is not religious in nature. I think that is pretty good for 2000 years.


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ringo
Member
Posts: 15982
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 4 of 28 (379386)
01-23-2007 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sdachristian
01-23-2007 8:52 PM


I don't see any particular significance in either Saturday or Sunday.

The emphasis in the commandment is on working only six days out of seven, not on which day must be the "seventh". Do you really want to see everybody taking the same day off - police, firefighters, doctors, nurses...?


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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 28 (379418)
01-24-2007 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sdachristian
01-23-2007 8:52 PM


Sabbath
I was around 9 years old before I had been in a church which was on Sunday. For 55+ years since I attended Sunday (first day) churches. That was also our the rest day for my family.

A few years ago my wife and I decided to visit a Saturday (7th day) Baptist church. We liked it and have attended that church since. I have, for a long time, had some concerns about Sabbath keeping as to whether it was important or not. I have come to believe that it is the best day to keep, though God seemed to honor my commitment to Sunday worship keeping and though most of the evangelization around the world has been done by Sunday worshippers.

Jesus, in the Olivet Discourse prophecy in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and I believe Luke 21, when prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem including the temple admonished the Christians to pray that the day come not on the Sabbath day. He was inferring that the Sabbath would still be in effect a number of decades after Penticost when the Christian era officially began. Jesus and the apostles also usually went to the temple on the Sabbath to minister.

The Genesis record says God rested on the 7th day. That's not Sunday but Saturday. If there were not a Sat church that I liked in my area or a Sunday one I liked much better, I'd go back to attending Sunday church but would retain Saturday (7th) as my rest day.

Having said the above, I judge nobody for whatever day they keep or whether or not they keep one. The apostle Paul said we should not judge anyone as to what they eat or drink or concerning the Sabbath day. He went on to say that one keeps one day and the other another and that if you keep it, you keep it unto God and if you keep it not, you keep it not unto God. He also said some regard one day and others regard all days alike. See Romans 14


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28
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Vacate
Member (Idle past 2614 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 6 of 28 (379419)
01-24-2007 12:52 AM


Though I do not think that a benevolent God would see resting on Sunday as a hell-worthy offence, it does specifically say the Sabbath. If such a clear cut commandment is open to interpretation why is there so much of the bible that is not open to similar interpretations?

Even Jesus did not break the commandment. I don't see how Christians can say that Saturday is simply important but Sunday can somehow be equally important {or even superior}. This interpretation of one of the ten commandments is something I have never understood about the vast majority of Christian believers.

My criticism is not that they rest on Sunday, its that most do not use the same measuring stick when talking about the rest of the bible.


  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 28 (379483)
01-24-2007 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
01-24-2007 12:52 AM


Re: Sabbath
The Genesis record says God rested on the 7th day. That's not Sunday but Saturday.

Let's look.

Well I read all of Genesis 1 and nowhere did I find "Monday, Tuesday, Thursday,Wednesday...".

The Sabbath is made for man. It is a time for reflection, evaluation, introspection. The command is to keep it holy.

It does not say worship on the Sabbath, or profess belief on the Sabbath, but to keep it holy.

For many the Sabbath is Friday, for many it is Saturday and for others it is Sunday.

Yet others know that it is not one day at all but rather everyday.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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truthlover
Member (Idle past 2073 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 8 of 28 (379493)
01-24-2007 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sdachristian
01-23-2007 8:52 PM


The pope didn't change the Sabbath to Sunday. He made Sunday into a day of rest, where there was no day of rest practiced in the early church. In other words, he restored an Old Testament practice that had not been practiced for centuries, and when he restored it, he put it on a different day, because that day was important to Christians.

I don't think this is right, and most Protestants do not regard Sunday as a Sabbath any more.

In the early church, no specific day of rest was kept except among Jewish believers, who did continue to keep a 7th day (Saturday) Sabbath. The 1st century Letter to Diognetus says that Jewish Sabbath keeping is unworthy of notice, Justin's Apology of around AD 150 says Christians met early in the morning on Sunday, and his Dialogue with Trypho makes it clear that it was widely known that Christians neither kept a Sabbath, offered sacrifices, kept the food laws, or circumcised their children.

The Bible answer is that Paul said all those things were simply shadows of things to come. ("Feasts, New Moons, and Sabbaths" are a common way to refer to the yearly, monthly, and weekly special days. Look that phrase up in a concordance sometime. Col 2 is definitely referring to the weekly Sabbath.)

The Gentiles were given four ordinances of Moses to follow. Sabbath keeping was not one of them.

On the other hand, the early church believed that resting daily in Christ was the true Sabbath ("If, therefore, any one can now sanctify the day which God hath sanctified, except he is pure in heart in all things, we are deceived" [Letter of Barnabas, ch. 15, c. AD 130]).

Sunday was a special day of celebration, however, even though it was not a Sabbath. Kneeling in prayer was disallowed on that day, because it was a day of joy. Barnabas wrote, "Ye perceive how He speaks: Your present Sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that is which I have made, when, giving rest to all things, I shall make a beginning of the eighth day, that is, a beginning of another world. Wherefore, also, we keep the eighth day with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead" [ibid. 15]. Sunday was not the 1st day, but the 8th day, to them.

So, as I said, the pope did not change the day. He resurrected Sabbath-keeping, and while he was doing that moved it to Sunday, because that was the only day the Christians were celebrating.


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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 9 of 28 (379582)
01-24-2007 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sdachristian
01-23-2007 8:52 PM


For one thing, keeping the Sabbath is not binding on Gentiles, and most Christians are Gentiles.

If I recall correctly, Acts (chapter 15) describes a serious point of contention between the followers of Paul and a sect of Christian Pharisees, whether Christians were obligated to continue following the Jewish Law. If I recall, the decision was reached that the Law was still binding on Jewish Christians but not Gentile Christians.

So, unless you are a Jewish Christian, keeping the Sabbath is not a requirement at all, and so you are free to take any day off or none.


But government...is not simply the way we express ourselves collectively but also often the only way we preserve our freedom from private power and its incursions. -- Bill Moyers (quoting John Schwarz)
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DorfMan
Member (Idle past 4095 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 10 of 28 (379635)
01-24-2007 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by truthlover
01-24-2007 12:20 PM


4th commandment is one
of ten, which happen to be immutable. Look from beginning to end of scripture and you will not find them 'done in'.

Most folks would get all bent out of shape if someone suggested nine don't apply, nine are fine, one isn't.

How the ten commandments became 'Jewish' is a mystery to me. They were around long before there ever was a Jew, and the fourth was kept first by God HIMSELF and the commandment tells you why and what its purpose is.

That it is Saturday is also not up for dispute, although people dispute it, because they don't know how to deal with an omnipotent God. Regardless, Sabbath is the seventh day and it tells you what your activities should be and how it should be observed.

Here are some examples of what folks have done with this day, because they think they can:

(If you don't know which church has cardinals, it's the catholic church).

James Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of our Fathers, 88th ed., pp. 89.

"But you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The Scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify."

Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism 3rd ed., p. 174.

"Question: Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?

"Answer: Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her-she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday, the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday, the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority."

John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies (1 936), vol. 1, P. 51.

"Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days."

Daniel Ferres, ed., Manual of Christian Doctrine (1916), p.67.

"Question: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?

"Answer. By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of, and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.'

James Cardinal Gibbons, Archbishop of Baltimore (1877-1921), in a signed letter.

"Is Saturday the seventh day according to the Bible and the Ten Commandments? I answer yes. Is Sunday the first day of the week and did the Church change the seventh day -Saturday - for Sunday, the first day? I answer yes . Did Christ change the day'? I answer no!

"Faithfully yours, J. Card. Gibbons"

The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.

"The Catholic Church, . . . by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday."

Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. "To Tell You the Truth."

"For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible."

Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957), p. 50.

"Question: Which is the Sabbath day?

"Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

"Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?

"Answer. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."

So much for the catholics, whose fingers fingered the change.

Here are some Protestants. I don't know what possesses them to acknowledge but not practice:

Anglican/Episcopal
Isaac Williams, Plain Sermons on the Catechism , vol. 1, pp.334, 336.

"And where are we told in the Scriptures that we are to keep the first day at all? We are commanded to keep the seventh; but we are nowhere commanded to keep the first day .... The reason why we keep the first day of the week holy instead of the seventh is for the same reason that we observe many other things, not because the Bible, but because the church has enjoined it."

Baptist
Dr. Edward T. Hiscox, a paper read before a New York ministers' conference, Nov. 13, 1893, reported in New York Examiner , Nov.16, 1893.

"There was and is a commandment to keep holy the Sabbath day, but that Sabbath day was not Sunday. It will be said, however, and with some show of triumph, that the Sabbath was transferred from the seventh to the first day of the week .... Where can the record of such a transaction be found? Not in the New Testament absolutely not.

"To me it seems unaccountable that Jesus, during three years' intercourse with His disciples, often conversing with them upon the Sabbath question . . . never alluded to any transference of the day; also, that during forty days of His resurrection life, no such thing was intimated.

"Of course, I quite well know that Sunday did come into use in early Christian history . . . . But what a pity it comes branded with the mark of paganism, and christened with the name of the sun god, adopted and sanctioned by the papal apostasy, and bequeathed as a sacred legacy to Protestantism!"

Lutheran
The Sunday Problem , a study book of the United Lutheran Church (1923), p. 36.

"We have seen how gradually the impression of the Jewish sabbath faded from the mind of the Christian Church, and how completely the newer thought underlying the observance of the first day took possession of the church. We have seen that the Christians of the first three centuries never confused one with the other, but for a time celebrated both."

Augsburg Confession of Faith art. 28; written by Melanchthon, approved by Martin Luther, 1530; as published in The Book of Concord of the Evangelical Lutheran Church Henry Jacobs, ed. (1 91 1), p. 63.

"They [Roman Catholics] refer to the Sabbath Day, a shaving been changed into the Lord's Day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it seems. Neither is there any example whereof they make more than concerning the changing of the Sabbath Day. Great, say they, is the power of the Church, since it has dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments!"

Methodist

John Wesley, The Works of the Rev. John Wesley, A.M., John Emory, ed. (New York: Eaton & Mains), Sermon 25,vol. 1, p. 221.

"But, the moral law contained in the ten commandments, and enforced by the prophets, he [Christ] did not take away. It was not the design of his coming to revoke any part of this. This is a law which never can be broken .... Every part of this law must remain in force upon all mankind, and in all ages; as not depending either on time or place, or any other circumstances liable to change, but on the nature of God and the nature of man, and their unchangeable relation to each other."

Dwight L. Moody
D. L. Moody, Weighed and Wanting (Fleming H. Revell Co.: New York), pp. 47, 48.

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. This fourth commandment begins with the word 'remember,' showing that the Sabbath already existed when God Wrote the law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?"
http://www.biblesabbath.org/confessions.html

More may be found in the link. Or do your own research.

Enjoy!


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DorfMan
Member (Idle past 4095 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 11 of 28 (379638)
01-24-2007 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Chiroptera
01-24-2007 6:58 PM


Nine are for everyone
one is not. That is profoundly gullible.
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 12 of 28 (379639)
01-24-2007 10:10 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by DorfMan
01-24-2007 10:09 PM


Re: Nine are for everyone
Sorry, I just read Acts 15. You are wrong.


But government...is not simply the way we express ourselves collectively but also often the only way we preserve our freedom from private power and its incursions. -- Bill Moyers (quoting John Schwarz)
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DorfMan
Member (Idle past 4095 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 13 of 28 (379640)
01-24-2007 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Buzsaw
01-24-2007 12:52 AM


Re: Sabbath
Would Paul go contrary to God's commandments? If not, then what does he mean by the statements you cite?
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DorfMan
Member (Idle past 4095 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 14 of 28 (379642)
01-24-2007 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Chiroptera
01-24-2007 10:10 PM


Re: Nine are for everyone
Then why don't you prove it from scripture, Acts 15 what?

http://www.biblesabbath.org/confessions.html


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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 15 of 28 (379643)
01-24-2007 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by DorfMan
01-24-2007 10:14 PM


Re: Nine are for everyone
Read the whole chapter; it's not very long. It gives the context for the doctrine. I'm sure your reading skills are good enough that you'll be able to pick out the part of the Law that is binding on Christians.


But government...is not simply the way we express ourselves collectively but also often the only way we preserve our freedom from private power and its incursions. -- Bill Moyers (quoting John Schwarz)
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