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Member (Idle past 2492 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: The 5th Limb? (Tails) | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
Nuggin Member (Idle past 2492 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Been talking with Randman on a different thread about human tails and fetuses and whatnot, and it got me thinking.
Are there any mammals that don't have tail bones? I don't mean they don't have tails, I'm sure there are a few. But, can anyone think of any species that don't have at least a completely internal tailbone like we do? For that matter, I'm trying to think of reptiles/amphibians that either don't have tails or never had tails during their various stages (ie tadpoles). How universal are tails? Seems like a whole lot of them out there. Stands to reason, obviously, since I don't think there are any tailless fish (save the filet o' variety). But, in the interest of good science - can anyone think of any completely tailless animals?
{Added the "(Tails)" to the topic title. - Adminnemooseus} This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 12-04-2005 03:13 AM
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Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
oh god don't talk about tailbones... you're making mine hurt.
dinoflagelates?coral? i think the idea of having a backbone demands a tail. it's an extension and a stabilizer. those of us who have inutile tailbones have simply lost our need for stabilization (ground dwelling apes etc). This message has been edited by brennakimi, 12-04-2005 01:51 PM i'm worldwide bitch, act like ya'll don't know.
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Nuggin Member (Idle past 2492 days) Posts: 2965 From: Los Angeles, CA USA Joined: |
Totally didn't think about corals or insects as animals.
Let's lessen the scope. Can anyone think of any member of Cordata that lacks a tail (either obvious or not)?
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macaroniandcheese  Suspended Member (Idle past 3927 days) Posts: 4258 Joined: |
i think you're missing my point. tails are backbones. period.
part of being a spinal critter means having a head and a postanal tail. that's what it means. This message has been edited by brennakimi, 12-04-2005 02:50 PM
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mick Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 913 Joined: |
Hi Nuggin,
I found this website which claims that some human beings are born without a coccyx. It also has some other cool facts about useless body parts:
quote: Creationist websites appear to claim that the coccyx fufils a useful function, as an anchor for nerve and muscle development in the embryo and adult. Quite why they think this is an argument against evolution is beyond me... Brennakimi is correct to say that you can't be a chordate without having a tail; but when one bears in mind that snakes have over 400 vertebrae and humans only 33, it seems reasonable to suppose that at least some parts of the tail have been lost and gained over evolutionary time.
If the picture of the dolphin above is correct, then it DOESN'T have a coccyx because it lacks fused sacral bones (are they fused in the cat?). Given that dolphins evolved from terrestrial mammals with fused sacral bones(?), they must either have "un-fused" or been lost and evolved new sacral bones from the lumbar region. I don't know which. Probably one of the fossil-people can elucidate. apologies for editing this post repeatedly. This message has been edited by mick, 12-04-2005 07:58 PM This message has been edited by mick, 12-04-2005 08:05 PM This message has been edited by mick, 12-04-2005 08:09 PM
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mick Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 913 Joined: |
Okay, I did a bit more reading and found that the sacrum did indeed unfuse itself during the evolution of cetacea.
The sacrum is the set of bones (often fused together in terrestrial mammals) which support the pelvic girdle. The sacrum, however, is not the coccyx:
So, basically, Brennakimi is correct, unless somebody can come up with an animal with no backbone lower than its pelvis. Nevertheless, the loss of the fused sacrum in whales is pretty remarkable. Mick This message has been edited by mick, 12-04-2005 08:35 PM
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mick Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 913 Joined: |
Okay, there's a couple of breeds of manx cat called "rumpy riser" and "rumpy" which have no caudal vertebrae (no backbone below the pelvic girdle) and therefore are completely tailless in every sense of the word.
link Mick
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mick Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 913 Joined: |
It also seems that some families of megachiroptera (a suborder including the vampire bats) have no caudal vertebrae, i.e. no tail beneath the pelvic girdle.
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
How about the tailess dogs, for example Corgis, Schiprerke, Rottweilers and such?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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mick Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 913 Joined: |
I think that the "tail-less" dogs are generally the product of the tail being snipped off by the owner. As far as I know, and a dog fan here might correct me, it's a middle-ages idea that it was supposed to help the dogs run through thick undergrowth in search of prey.
It kind of makes you wince when you read Brennakimi's view that the tail is part of our spine... There's no way I'd dock the tail of one of my dogs. Mick This message has been edited by mick, 12-04-2005 09:24 PM
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MangyTiger Member (Idle past 6353 days) Posts: 989 From: Leicester, UK Joined: |
Certainly most pedigree dogs like Rotties have their tails docked at a few days old.
I don't know about the middle ages idea but in modern times tail docking is all down to the breed standards that the Kennel Club and associated Breed societies use. In reality these are nothing more than Victorian fashion statements that have produced many problems in the various breeds and need to be seriously overhauled.[/rant] I wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then
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Coragyps Member (Idle past 734 days) Posts: 5553 From: Snyder, Texas, USA Joined: |
Schipperkes, at least, are born with a tail - my sister has an undocked one. She (the dog, not the sister) carries her tail arched over her back, and I don't remember it wagging at all.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1404 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Creationist websites appear to claim that the coccyx fufils a useful function, as an anchor for nerve and muscle development in the embryo and adult. Quite why they think this is an argument against evolution is beyond me... The argument is that it isn't the left over remains of a 'monkey' tail, it is there for a purpose other than a tail from a common ancestor. Of course it is an invalid argument as coccygectomies are done that completely remove the coccyx with no adverse effects on most of the patients. Summary of seven studies of coccygectomy for coccydynia by our ability to understand RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share.
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2302 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
Pembroke corgis can be born with or without tails, and many lengths in between, this tail is generally docked.
The cardigan corgi has a tail that isn't docked.
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