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Author Topic:   The Battle For Truth
Phat
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Posts: 9492
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 1 of 10 (427336)
10-11-2007 4:59 AM


This controversial Book Nook Review will focus on a book written by David A. Noebel, the president of an evangelical leadership training center known as Summit Ministries. .

The book is called The Battle For Truth and represents the world view of most of the Evangelical Christians, (Known around here as the Christian Culture Of Ignorance or The Christian Communion of Bobbleheads).

Note the High School Curriculum of Summit Ministries.

How do they explain their purpose and overall philosophy?

Here are two FAQ from their website:

is it important to teach world view thinking?

Christians need to understand that the truth of God's word applies to all of life. They need to be able to discern truth from error, whether sitting in a university classroom or watching the evening news.

What is the goal of this curriculum?

first goal is defensive. We want to protect Christian youth from deception by anti-Christian world views. A recent UCLA dissertation showed that of the college freshmen who identified themselves as "born-again" when they entered college, only 50% identified themselves that way when they graduated!

The second goal is offensive. We want to train up Christian leaders who can actively champion the truth of Christianity in a culture of relativism, paganism, hedonism and confusion.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Noebels book opens with a poignant quote by Dr. James Dobson:

The Battle For Truth writes:

"Nothing short of great Civil War of Values rages today throughout North America. Two sides with vastly differing and incompatible world-views are locked in a bitter conflict that permeates every level of society. …the struggle now is for the hearts and minds of the people. It is a war over ideas. And someday soon, I believe, a winner will emerge and the loser will fade from memory. For now, the outcome is very much in doubt."

The book advances the idea that Christianity is locked in some titanic struggle of values within itself and aligned against three other world views:

  • Secular Humanism

  • Marxism/Leninism

  • Cosmic Humanism (The New Age Movement)

    FOUR WESTERN WORLDVIEW MODELS
    SOURCES HUMANIST MANIFESTO I & IIWRITINGS OF MARX & LENIN NEW AGE SPIRITUALITY BIBLICAL CHRISTIANITY
    THEOLOGY Atheism Atheism Pantheism Theism
    PHILOSOPHY Naturalism Dialectical MaterialismNon-NaturalismSuper-naturalism
    ETHICSRelativismProletariat MoralityRelativismAbsolutes
    BIOLOGYDarwinian EvolutionDarwinian Punctuated EvolutionDarwinian Punctuated EvolutionCreationism
    PSYCHOLOGYSelf ActualizationBehaviorismCollective ConsciousnessMind/Body
    SOCIOLOGYNon-Traditional FamilyAbolition of Home, Church, & StateNon-traditional Home, Church, & StateTraditional Home,Church, and State
    LAWPositive LawPositive LawSelf LawBiblical & Natural Law
    POLITICSGlobalism (World Government)New World OrderNew Age OrderJustice, Freedom, & Order
    ECONOMICSSocialismSocialismUniversal Enlightened ProductionStewardship of Property
    HISTORYHistorical EvolutionHistorical MaterialismEvolutionary GodhoodHistorical Resurrection

    Anyway....the Author makes it plain that there is no compromise among Christians in this philosophical "struggle." In another book that Noebel coauthors with Tim LaHaye, entitled Mind Siege one comment said that

    quote:
    The duo has assembled a fear-producing manifesto attacking just about every known minority group and liberal social cause. In the opening chapter, (ominously titled "It Could Happen..."), the authors offer an exaggerated vision of what the world could look like in 10 years if we still forbid Christianity to be taught in U.S. public schools, or if Americans continue to offer gays and lesbians equal rights, or dozens of other similar horrors.

    What is the root of this evil future scenario? "Secular Humanism," according to the authors. "Unfortunately, the mainline churches ... have eaten, swallowed and disgusted tons of humanistic dogma: evolution, socialism, Marxism, higher criticism of the Bible, moral relativism, amoral sex education, nontraditional families, liberation theology, process theology, gay theology, feminist theology, black theology, world government, and global citizenship to name a few."

    Some readers will be thrilled by this call to trek what the authors feel is the moral high ground, especially those who base their religious values upon intolerance of racial equity, homosexual love, and women's right to choose (even if that choice makes her a single parent in a "nontraditional family"). Others will most likely find this a disturbing and offensive contribution to the American landscape.


    Personally, as I read viewpoints from the opposing "sides" in this debate, I find that while the conservative Christians are quite extreme in some of their views, there has to be a reason that they are worried about the future of the culture. Could it be that they themselves fear extinction?

    Edited by Phat, : trying to get this darn thing to fit on the page!

    Edited by Phat, : etc

    Edited by Phat, : fixed table


    Replies to this message:
     Message 2 by jar, posted 10-11-2007 10:55 AM Phat has responded
     Message 3 by dwise1, posted 10-11-2007 11:51 AM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 6 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-11-2007 4:09 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 7 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-10-2007 8:18 PM Phat has not yet responded
     Message 9 by dwise1, posted 06-11-2008 9:23 PM Phat has not yet responded

      
  • jar
    Member
    Posts: 29138
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 2 of 10 (427397)
    10-11-2007 10:55 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    10-11-2007 4:59 AM


    Battle for Truth by beginning with misrepresentation?
    Phat, how come your BullShit detector is not going off when you see nonsense like this?

    Look at their categories. Did they exclude Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Taoism, Janism, Hinduism? Are they hiding the fact that there are many (I would say a majority) of Christians out there that disagree with what they label as Biblical Christians?

    If you are searching for truth, you do not start by concealing data.

    A Scientist who did that would be drummed out of the profession. Science has ethics.


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-11-2007 4:59 AM Phat has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 4 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-11-2007 2:05 PM jar has not yet responded
     Message 10 by Phat, posted 11-29-2014 2:02 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 2863
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 4.2


    Message 3 of 10 (427417)
    10-11-2007 11:51 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    10-11-2007 4:59 AM


    If truth is supposed to be so vitally important to them, why do they rely so heavily on lies? In particular, I'm thinking of the repeated and constant lies and deceptions found through out "creation science" for the entirety of its nearly-four-decade existence. And of the leaders of the movement purposefully crafting those lies and deceptions and continuing to propagate them long after their falsehood had been exposed to them over and over and over again.

    How is the truth supposed to be upheld and served by lies and deception?

    And how could anyone with even a shred of morality consider converting to a religion that can only be supported by lies and deception? "Creation science" and culture of lies and deception that it promotes is an excellent argument against Christianity, not just because of the lies and deception but also because it shows how eagerly and zealously Christians will swallow anything they're told by their religious leaders and how desparately they will struggle against the truth.

    If they really want to serve truth, then they must seek out and adhere to the truth. That requires that they examine and test their own claims and assumptions, something that they refuse to do. But until they do that, they will continue to serve the Lord of Lies, the only Christian deity I've heard of who, according to my understanding of Christian doctrine, is the only one served by lies and deception.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-11-2007 4:59 AM Phat has not yet responded

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    Dr Adequate
    Member
    Posts: 15946
    Joined: 07-20-2006
    Member Rating: 3.6


    Message 4 of 10 (427449)
    10-11-2007 2:05 PM
    Reply to: Message 2 by jar
    10-11-2007 10:55 AM


    Re: Battle for Truth by beginning with misrepresentation?
    Phat, how come your BullShit detector is not going off when you see nonsense like this?

    My reading of his post was that his bullshit meter is going off.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by jar, posted 10-11-2007 10:55 AM jar has not yet responded

      
    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 12863
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 3.4


    Message 5 of 10 (427459)
    10-11-2007 2:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 3 by dwise1
    10-11-2007 11:51 AM


    Read between the lines. It's not about fighting for truth. It's about fighting to control "truth".

    So is it surprising that they use falsehoods and distortions ?


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by dwise1, posted 10-11-2007 11:51 AM dwise1 has not yet responded

        
    Dr Adequate
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    Posts: 15946
    Joined: 07-20-2006
    Member Rating: 3.6


    (1)
    Message 6 of 10 (427478)
    10-11-2007 4:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    10-11-2007 4:59 AM


    The Battle For Truth writes:

    And someday soon, I believe, a winner will emerge and the loser will fade from memory. For now, the outcome is very much in doubt.

    Yeah, it's hanging in the balance. Of course, the fundies have God on their side, but I hear that the Secular Humanists are building a fleet of iron chariots.

    Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-11-2007 4:59 AM Phat has not yet responded

      
    Hyroglyphx
    Member
    Posts: 5512
    From: Austin, TX
    Joined: 05-03-2006


    Message 7 of 10 (433253)
    11-10-2007 8:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    10-11-2007 4:59 AM


    Extreme.... but who?
    In another book that Noebel coauthors with Tim LaHaye, entitled Mind Siege one comment said that

    I read Mind Siege a few years ago. It was a really good book. Too bad my wife got rid of it. :mad:

    quote:
    Some readers will be thrilled by this call to trek what the authors feel is the moral high ground, especially those who base their religious values upon intolerance of racial equity, homosexual love, and women's right to choose (even if that choice makes her a single parent in a "nontraditional family"). Others will most likely find this a disturbing and offensive contribution to the American landscape.

    Personally, as I read viewpoints from the opposing "sides" in this debate, I find that while the conservative Christians are quite extreme in some of their views, there has to be a reason that they are worried about the future of the culture. Could it be that they themselves fear extinction?

    Perhaps it is extreme to a degree. I mean, there are a lot of theologians that really are extreme, don't get me wrong. Some vary with me between mild annoyance to spiritual indignation. This author, though, I don't believe comes anywhere near that. If I'm not mistaken, he's out of Moody, which is generally very good with its ecumenical teachings.

    On the opposite end of the spectrum, I'm curious to know why mainstream culture today asserts that maintaining traditional values is considered extreme, while 40 men ejaculating into a funnel where some lowly girl sits is not considered extreme-- or if it is, is not incessantly lambasted the way Christendom is.

    As a Christian, don't you find that odd? Doesn't it seem like the world is out of touch to you?

    The world is getting more and more pluralistic. With that comes one of the most revered virtues in modern times-- tolerance. Except, this kind of tolerance, the new tolerance, is in fact rabidly intolerant in the name of tolerance. Heck, Phat, you should know as well as anyone what that's all about. I've seen you on the receiving end of a good thrashing over your mild, unassuming beliefs.


    “This life’s dim windows of the soul, distorts the heavens from pole to pole, and goads you to believe a lie, when you see with and not through the eye.” -William Blake
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-11-2007 4:59 AM Phat has not yet responded

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    sl33w
    Member (Idle past 3200 days)
    Posts: 53
    Joined: 05-23-2008


    Message 8 of 10 (470655)
    06-11-2008 5:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 7 by Hyroglyphx
    11-10-2007 8:18 PM


    Re: Extreme.... but who?
    Reply to: Phat

    1) The Second Dark Ages resulted from the Ecumenical Council of Amsterdam, in August 1948.

    2) 128 Protestant denominations were added to the seven Old Catholic Churches, and Eastern Orthodox Churches, and Anglican Church.

    3) The stated goal was, "Unity with the Pope." This was demonstrated by Billy Graham, in a television interview, when asked, "What was the greatest disappointment in your career?"; he answered without a blink, "The Pope would not join me." [Personally, I am thrilled that the Pope thinks the Ecumenical Movement unworthy of his company.]

    4) Adolph Hitler, was, "The Defender of the Faith." In 1938, the Ecumenical Movement mailed out its Constitution to prospective members, planning to "ban the Bible worldwide in 1939."

    5) But then, Jesus had promised a Millennium (1859-1959). Because of that Jesus sent Hitler to invade Europe, and turn it into a battlefield; and as a result "chasing the church doctors [Gog] out of Europe." Because of this, I was blessed to hear the Protestant interpretation of the Bible which is banned worldwide today.

    6) I was taught, in 1943, "when the thousand years expires, Satan will be loosed from his prison [lake of fire - Rev 19.20]"; and this is in the future. In 1960, Gog came to town and seduced my family, friends, and congregation. Today, I know not a single man who believes in the living God of the Protestants, or in the Bible message of the Protestants. [However, I am extremely blessed, for my wife is a believer.]

    7) The Bible message, from the beginning, is "separation from the world." A) The sons of Seth were to remain separated from the daughters of Cain; B) Israel was to remain separated from pagans; C) The Called-out (Ekklesia) was to remain separated from unbelievers; D) The Millennnium (I was there!) was separated from doctors, preachers, and creed-makers, and the traditions of man.

    8) Jesus protects us by identifying our enemies. One of many examples is the craze over the Dead Sea Scrolls (only recently), which was condemned in First Timothy 4.1-3, "forbidding to marry"; which was the Essenes who wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls, and died out, because of the lack of marriage. For 1850 years men knew to keep away from this filth. But now we are in the Second Dark Ages.

    9) Paul wrote to Ephesus, "Everyone is out to get you!" (6.12-18). But you have mentioned the opinion that it is crazy to believe in God. In my lifetime, the Pope has banned the definition of, "The Dark Ages" in our dictionaries, because he is identified as "The Father of the Dark Ages." Our Bible translations grow steadily worse, which seems like an impossible feat, considering how bad the KJV is.

    So then, this book you are discussing is partially right.

    sl33w


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    dwise1
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    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 4.2


    Message 9 of 10 (470679)
    06-11-2008 9:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
    10-11-2007 4:59 AM


    Since someone else has already responded to an old post:

    A recent UCLA dissertation showed that of the college freshmen who identified themselves as "born-again" when they entered college, only 50% identified themselves that way when they graduated!

    Hmm, not doing as bad as I heard Hovind tell.

    At http://members.aol.com/dwise1/cre_ev/quotes.html#75_PERCENT I quote from one of Kent Hovind's seminar tapes that used to be on-line (itself a quote which I'll cite here and links to whose sources are at the link I provide above):

    quote:
    "Let My Children Go" video by Caryl Matritiano of Jeremiah Films, as quoted by Kent Hovind on his fourth seminar tape at 42 minutes and 55 seconds:
    "75% of all children raised in Christian homes who attend public schools will reject the Christian faith by their first year of college."

    I'm sure that Hovind and Jeremiah Films and that Summit Ministries FAQ all want to interpret that as meaning that the godless schools are targetting the faith of their kids for destruction.

    But I interpret it quite differently. I see it as resulting for those children's eyes being opened to the truth about science and other subjects and realizing that for their entire lives their parents and their church had been lying to them about everything! Having heard and read several testimonials by atheists, the single most prevalent feature in the testimonials of the anti-religion atheists was that their religion and religious leaders had lied to them or had betrayed them in some way. I just see those two reports by evangelicals about the loss of faith in college as further support of what those testimonials said. Those evangelicals really should trying actually talking with atheists so that they can find out what's really happening.

    BTW, one of the more humorous deconversion stories was from a former Baptist. Raise strict Baptist his entire life, he started attending college where he met and started dating a Catholic girl. He really liked her and it made him feel just awful for her that she was going to Hell for not being a "true Christian". Then on one date she started crying uncontrollable and as he tried to comfort her she blurted out that she really liked him and she felt just awful for him that he was going to go to Hell for not being a Catholic.

    Hello!!! This got him thinking and questioning. So he went into the college library and asked for a complete history of Christianity. The librarian warned him that he really didn't want to read it, but he insisted. It took him a month to read through that entire thick book. When he finished he decided that he wasn't sure anymore if that was a God, but if there was, then He sure as Hell wasn't Christian.


    {When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
    ("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)

    Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
    (from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)

    Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
    (Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)

    Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
    ("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)

    It is a well-known fact that reality has a definite liberal bias.
    Robert Colbert on NPR


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Phat, posted 10-11-2007 4:59 AM Phat has not yet responded

        
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 9492
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 2.3


    Message 10 of 10 (743257)
    11-29-2014 2:02 AM
    Reply to: Message 2 by jar
    10-11-2007 10:55 AM


    Re: Battle for Truth by beginning with misrepresentation?
    jar writes:

    If you are searching for truth, you do not start by concealing data.

    A Scientist who did that would be drummed out of the profession. Science has ethics.

    This particular Club has a narrow definition of truth. Perhaps they see the Bible as truth. Perhaps they see like minded club members as representing truth. Perhaps they use religion to push their own brand of truth on others.

    Pilate asked Jesus "What is truth?" You might say it is Logic, Reason, & Reality. I shall continue asking questions.


    Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo

    One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 2 by jar, posted 10-11-2007 10:55 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

      
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