Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9161 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,585 Year: 2,842/9,624 Month: 687/1,588 Week: 93/229 Day: 4/61 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   God is a deadbeat Dad
DC85
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 1 of 60 (50470)
08-13-2003 11:27 PM


I just have a Question for Creationist(mass religion Creationist. christen etc...)and maybe they can answer them.
Why has God not talked to us in 2000 years? couldn't he just talk to us all to help us Know he is there(everyone at once)? couldn't he directly talk to me? if not then how can he possibly answer my Prayers?

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by awinkisas, posted 08-13-2003 11:49 PM DC85 has not replied
 Message 9 by Zealot, posted 08-16-2003 12:01 AM DC85 has replied

awinkisas
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 60 (50477)
08-13-2003 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
08-13-2003 11:27 PM


And another thing: how come there are less and less miracles? Back in the good old days god was laying them on thick. Now, not so much. You would think that in these days of ever increasing skepticism that a significant miracle would at least quiet some of the nay-sayers.
Of course this could all come down to a matter of faith. With less signs greater faith is required.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DC85, posted 08-13-2003 11:27 PM DC85 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by joshua221, posted 08-14-2003 12:15 AM awinkisas has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 60 (50480)
08-14-2003 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by awinkisas
08-13-2003 11:49 PM


.
To give people like you a test of faith.
------------------
"As by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? The number of intermediate links between all living and extinct species must have been inconceivably great!" (emphasis added) -- Charles Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by awinkisas, posted 08-13-2003 11:49 PM awinkisas has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by awinkisas, posted 08-14-2003 12:31 AM joshua221 has replied

awinkisas
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 60 (50484)
08-14-2003 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by joshua221
08-14-2003 12:15 AM


Re: .
So are there different kinds of faith? In other words, is a Christian (or for that matter anyone who belivies in the metaphysical) required to exercise blind faith, faith in the face of contradictory evidence, faith that transcends knowledge or is it possible for someone to have faith based on knowlegde. It is my view that faith and knowledge are mutually exclusive. Having one removes the need for the other.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by joshua221, posted 08-14-2003 12:15 AM joshua221 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by joshua221, posted 08-14-2003 12:43 AM awinkisas has replied

joshua221 
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 60 (50486)
08-14-2003 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by awinkisas
08-14-2003 12:31 AM


Re: .
That's your view, I disagree.
------------------
"As by this theory innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? The number of intermediate links between all living and extinct species must have been inconceivably great!" (emphasis added) -- Charles Darwin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by awinkisas, posted 08-14-2003 12:31 AM awinkisas has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by awinkisas, posted 08-14-2003 12:50 AM joshua221 has not replied

awinkisas
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 60 (50487)
08-14-2003 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by joshua221
08-14-2003 12:43 AM


Re: .
Good rebuttal. Maybe I'll rephrase it another way.
If you have knowledge of the existence (or non-existence) of something is faith required?
If you have faith in the existence (or non-existence) of something is knowledge required?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by joshua221, posted 08-14-2003 12:43 AM joshua221 has not replied

awinkisas
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 60 (50595)
08-14-2003 4:54 PM


Not going to bite? I'll give you the punch-line anyways.
The Bible states that God demands we believe in him based on faith, (Hebrews 11:1, 11:6, Phil 1:27, John 20:29, Luke 16:31, Romans 8:24,25) and not through wisdom or knowledge (1 Cor 1:19-25, 1 Cor 2:13, 1 Cor 3:19, 2 Tim 3:7).
Thus God has created the universe in such a way that his presence is not implicitly revealed. He is not going to place a smoking gun within our grasp. If he does then he removes the element of faith. We don’t need faith to believe in something if we have proof. He also won’t provide miracles that demonstrate his existence for the same reason.
Creation Science seems dead set on providing proof that the earth was created by God. If they do then faith goes out the window.
This raises the question of whether the universe is sufficiently ambiguous to allow for the existence of God. He obviously wouldn’t create a universe that contradicted his existence because that would be misleading to his flock. He would need to create it in such a way that there is wiggle room.

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by crashfrog, posted 08-14-2003 5:06 PM awinkisas has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 8 of 60 (50596)
08-14-2003 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by awinkisas
08-14-2003 4:54 PM


Thus God has created the universe in such a way that his presence is not implicitly revealed. He is not going to place a smoking gun within our grasp. If he does then he removes the element of faith. We don’t need faith to believe in something if we have proof. He also won’t provide miracles that demonstrate his existence for the same reason.
But why is faith so great? Better yet why is faith better than evidence? Why is faith better than skepticism?
Without evidence or confirmation, how are you supposed to know you have faith in the right thing? Sounds like a gamble, to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by awinkisas, posted 08-14-2003 4:54 PM awinkisas has not replied

Zealot
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 60 (50691)
08-16-2003 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by DC85
08-13-2003 11:27 PM


Hi, your topic is slightly disrespectfull.
Why has God not talked to us in 2000 years?
Possibly because you haven't made an effort to talk to Him ? Kinda would defy the entire 'faith' thing if God just decided to show himself. And before you try, praying that He will show Himself in person, a little advice, it seldom works. Not that I'm an expert on this, but usually the more faith you have the more you will see of God.
Kinda like this. If you believe 100% in God (like Jesus did), you probably would have some pretty special meetings with God, however if your faith is at 50%, God would not show himself to 'artificially' increase your faith, instead He would show you some parts of Him. You might have a revelation whatever...
Lets put it this way. A while back I was actually discussing the Flood debate on a seperate forum and at its peak a (hehe) Jehova's witness knocked on my door and delivered me a pamphlet with the picture of Noah and His Ark on the front. Quite unusual I can tell you as in the 2 1/2 years I've lived at this place we've virtually never had anyone knock on our door out of the blue (other that friends or neighbours). Now while I'm not a Jehovas Witness, I saw this as a sign (due to the insane timing). All he did was drop off a pamphlet, said he would come back some time and haven't since.
You can interpret anything Godly experiences as 'placebo', pure chance, or as a result of a mental illness. It's all up to the individual. Its kinda like a man with hearing trying to explain to a deaf man what music is all about. To the deaf man there is no way of proving that there even is such a thing as music especially if the only person to own a CD player is God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by DC85, posted 08-13-2003 11:27 PM DC85 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by John, posted 08-16-2003 10:12 AM Zealot has not replied
 Message 11 by DC85, posted 08-16-2003 12:49 PM Zealot has not replied

John
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 60 (50704)
08-16-2003 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Zealot
08-16-2003 12:01 AM


quote:
Possibly because you haven't made an effort to talk to Him ?
That is a convenient answer, and frankly, a pretty irritating one. Some of us here have made an effort. I spent more than half my life making an effort. It kinda pisses me off to see this, very common, dismissive crap.
quote:
Kinda would defy the entire 'faith' thing if God just decided to show himself.
Yet god did just that through the first half of the OT. Plagues, anyone? Burning bush? There was a slow spell, and then Jesus arrived on the scene pitching miracles left and right. That, if I am not mistaken, is the impetus for DC85's question, "Why has God not talked to us in 2000 years?" It is very convenient that such things just stopped sometime in the distant past.
quote:
And before you try, praying that He will show Himself in person, a little advice, it seldom works.
That is an understatement.
quote:
If you believe 100% in God (like Jesus did), you probably would have some pretty special meetings with God, however if your faith is at 50%, God would not show himself to 'artificially' increase your faith, instead He would show you some parts of Him. You might have a revelation whatever...
How do you respond when the same is said of another God? Suppose some God other than yours decides to show herself? My guess, is that your answer will involve demon trickery-- say, the devil is playing games. How do you tell the difference?
quote:
Now while I'm not a Jehovas Witness, I saw this as a sign (due to the insane timing).
It is very hard to take this seriously. This kind of thing happens all the time. But when the subject matter is religious, it is called a sign. More than once I have picked up the phone to call someone and found that person already on the line. Does that make me psychic? Is it a sign? Hardly.
quote:
You can interpret anything Godly experiences as 'placebo', pure chance, or as a result of a mental illness.
Yes, you can. Lets assume that not all such experiences are the result of chance or of insanity. How do we know the difference? Person 'A' hears voices-- that is God. Person 'B' hears voices-- he is insane.
quote:
To the deaf man there is no way of proving that there even is such a thing as music especially if the only person to own a CD player is God.
But God doesn't play the CD. And we can't ask to hear a tune because that would "defy the entire 'faith' thing." The whole charade is crafted to be unverifiable and untestable. What would you think of someone who proposed an untestable theory in any other field?
------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Zealot, posted 08-16-2003 12:01 AM Zealot has not replied

DC85
Member (Idle past 370 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 11 of 60 (50710)
08-16-2003 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Zealot
08-16-2003 12:01 AM


how is my Topic disrespectful? If your Father leaves and you have little or no contact with him. is this Not a deadbeat dad? I am just stating my views on the Whole subject. I was Raised a catholic deep in Faith I prayed and worshiped etc... what did it get me? nothing! But pain. Its only when I started Doubting God everything that Happens had meaning.
I along time ago concluded the following from looking at the world.
if there is a God these are what he is
A.Unjust(I have MANY examples of this but one is why should I be on the Hook for my ancestors?)
B. Doesn't care at all
C. A sadistic B@st*rd
D.all of the Above
I am sorry but this is How I feel God seems to do Nothing for anyone.
Ok so your aunt Survived an Operation....... what makes you think God had to do with it? It seems to me it was the Doctor..... this my friend is no miracle its science
why doesn't God talk to me? when I was starting to doubt. am I not as Good a Thomas or Moses? am I nothing? I asked for help and God gave me the BOOT. Same that my Father did. he took of when I was Young. and we called him a deadbeat Dad. Why not call God the same thing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Zealot, posted 08-16-2003 12:01 AM Zealot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by A_Christian, posted 08-18-2003 11:34 AM DC85 has not replied

A_Christian
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 60 (50847)
08-18-2003 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by DC85
08-16-2003 12:49 PM


My Heavenly Father has given me at least three things. HE has given me HIS Love Letter----the Bible. HE has provided Salvation to those
who will accept it. HE has also sent me the Comforter
who ministers to me. I am NOT an orphan nor unloved.
How could you understand what you do not possess? The cart doesn't
go before the horse...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by DC85, posted 08-16-2003 12:49 PM DC85 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 08-18-2003 11:57 AM A_Christian has not replied
 Message 14 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-18-2003 12:51 PM A_Christian has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1457 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 13 of 60 (50851)
08-18-2003 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by A_Christian
08-18-2003 11:34 AM


My Heavenly Father has given me at least three things. HE has given me HIS Love Letter----the Bible. HE has provided Salvation to those
who will accept it. HE has also sent me the Comforter
who ministers to me. I am NOT an orphan nor unloved.
How could you understand what you do not possess? The cart doesn't
go before the horse...
Don't you find that just a little dismissive and disrespectful to DC? I mean what you've said is about as comforting as telling him about another family that his dad started, but actually stayed with. (Unless you're a sociopath I assume that you can imagine what that would be like.)
Heck I was insulted by proxy. As John said, it's no comfort - and it certainly doesn't commend the Christian faith - to say "if you didn't get love from God there must have been something wrong with you, not God."
Can't you hear how self-rightous that sounds? Many of us had just as much faith as you - like me - and never got any of the love or blessings that you're talking about - except for the ones we gave ourselves. It's not that we lost faith, and then lost god's love - it's that the absence of god's love made us lose our faith. If god exists he can hardly blame us when his own actions make us lose our faith.
(And what's the "Comforter" anyway? I have a comforter on my bed but it's from my wife's grandparents, not God.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by A_Christian, posted 08-18-2003 11:34 AM A_Christian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Brian, posted 08-18-2003 2:32 PM crashfrog has not replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 60 (50861)
08-18-2003 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by A_Christian
08-18-2003 11:34 AM


quote:
HE has given me HIS Love Letter----the Bible.
My girlfriend sent me a love letter last week that threatened me with eternal pain if I didn't do exactly as she said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by A_Christian, posted 08-18-2003 11:34 AM A_Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by A_Christian, posted 08-18-2003 1:43 PM Dan Carroll has replied

A_Christian
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 60 (50867)
08-18-2003 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dan Carroll
08-18-2003 12:51 PM


Dan Carroll:
The Bible says alot more than that----and would you rather go to
Hell without a clue?
Crashfrog:
Sorry, man. But if you received no blessings from GOD and yet
even JOB in his struggle recognized GOD's power--you show no signs of ever having been a child of GOD (it is something that one doesn't lose, by-the-way). There is no comfort for the unsaved. The invitation closes at death and even a more horrible hopeless
separation begings. Would you rather I speak less honestly and
ignore your situation in order to sooth your feathers now..?
Freedom of religion and speech is a very hard pill for some. What I
say, I say out of LOVE and CONCERN for you. I would rather die for
my beliefs if even one person was blessed, than to keep quiet while
potential friends stood at Hell's gate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-18-2003 12:51 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by crashfrog, posted 08-18-2003 2:10 PM A_Christian has not replied
 Message 18 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-18-2003 3:55 PM A_Christian has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024