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Author Topic:   Humani Generis Examined
Apostle
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 17 (86172)
02-13-2004 6:43 PM


(Individuals cite Pope JP II address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, as well as Pius XII's Humani Generis as evidence for Catholic support of Evolution. I have shown the Pope John Paul's address should not be seen as an endorsement, not I will show that Humani Generis should not be viewed as conciliatory towards evolution.
Apostle)
Pius XII's Humani Generis and Evolution
A. Introduction
Where the current Pope, John Paul II, was somewhat ambigous in his analysis of evolution, his predecessor, Pius XII, was crystal clear in his 1950 encyclical Humani Generis. Where John Paul II was reluctant to criticize evolution (besides materialist philosophies related to it) Pope Pius XII did not hesitate to use such words as 'imprudent,' 'audacious,' 'fictitious,' 'erroneous, 'false,' 'rash,' and other uncomplimentary terms when describing evolution and issues surrounding it.
It is commonly thought that the Catholic Church embraces evolution. Ask anyone to document this, and you will be pointed to two papers; Pope John Paul's Pontical Adress to the Papal Academy of Sciences, and Pius XII's Humani Generis.
As I have already shown, Pope John Paul II's address does not show support for evolution. Many misconceptions still exist, in part, to three reasons. First, the translation from French to English created many problems in several key lines. These translation errors have changed the meanings completely. Second, the Pope's reservations come toward the end of the Pope's address in very guarded language. Third, many assume that because the Pope did not overly criticize evolution, he consequently, must actually support it. In truth though, the purpose of the Pontifical address was not for the Pope, a theologian and philosopher, to criticize evolution, a scientific theory.
Yes, I did criticize the Pope in a previous article for not stating his reservations at the begining of his speech, which would have prevented any misconceptions that have since arisen. Having said that, I am realistic enough to understand why he didn’t. Nevertheless, I still disagree.
I have no complaint against the approach taken by Pius XII. Pius XII a skilled diplomat, uses a fighter's attitude when writing his encyclical Humani Generis, a writing which was subtitled, 'Concerning Some False Opinions Threatening to Undermine the Foundations of Catholic Doctrine.'
Before beginning, I would like to caution the reader, who may confuse the issue. One might dismiss Humani Generis as a 53-year-old document having little relevance today with the forever changing scientific thought. Humni Generis' relevance is not at issue. What is though is whether it shows support for evolution. (All Papal documents are of value to the Church, and age does not diminish them).
B. The Pope and Humani Generis
Evolution is not all that is discussed in this encyclical. Pius XII touches on a variety of subjects from philosophy in general, to a correct understanding of the Eucarist in particular. Evolution, somewhere in between these two subjects, is mentioned numerous times.
The Pope begins his comments of evolution by stating that, "Some imprudently and indiscreetly hold that evolution, which has not been fully proved in the domain of natural sciences, explains the origin of all of this..." (Line 5). The Pope states that such individuals, "audaciously support the monistic and pantheist opinion that the world is in continual evolution." (Line 5). This is a thinly veiled criticism against the writings of Jesuit priest and paleontologist, Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. As well as taking aim at Teilhard, the Pope also singles out communists as especially believing such things because, "when the souls of men have been deprived of every idea of a personal God, then they may more effaciously defend and propagate their dialectical materialism." (Line 5). Pius XII refers to such beliefs as 'ficticious tenets of evolution which repudiate all that is absolute, firm and immutable' and then states that these beliefs have 'paved the way for the new erroneous philosophy which rivals idealism, immanentism and pragmatism, having assumed the name existentialism, since it concerns itself only with existence..." (Line 6).
(In philosophy, idealism holds that objects of perception are actually ideas of the perceiving mind and that it is impossible to know whether reality exists apart from the mind. Existentialists hold that man exists as an individual in a purposeless universe, and that he must oppose this environment through the exercise of his free will. I do not know what exactly 'immanentism' is but I intend to find out).
The Pope warns that Catholic philosophers and theologians cannot afford to neglect or ignore these 'erroneous' opinions. He goes a step further by telling them to actually become familiar with these theories, for the Church cannot properly correct such mistaken views if they are unable to see or know the problems with them. The Pope adds that even in false theories, there exists certain truths that must be recongnized. (Line 9).
The Pope mentions those who suggest that in the Scriptures, immunity from error extends only to moral and religious matters, and not to science. Pope Pius XII labels such a view as 'perverted' and reminds us that such views have been consistently condemned. (Line 22). But the Pope does not leave this point. Recognizing a serious flaw he states, "According to their fictitious opinions, the literal sense of the Holy Scripture and its explanation, carefully worked out under the Church's vigilance by so many great interpreters, should now yield to a new interpretation, which they are pleased to call spiritual and symbolic... By this method, they say, all difficulties vanish, difficulties that hinder only those who adhere to the literal meaning of the Scriptures." (Line 23). I know many evolutionist and Christian men and women who hold to the belief that Pius has highlighted, a belief that in less than diplomatic terms he would refer to as a heresy. He states with authority "Everyone sees how foreign all this is to the norms of interpretation rightly fixed by our predecessors." He cites Pope Leo XIII's encyclical Providentissimus Deus which affirms a literal interpretation of Scripture. Leo XII writes, "We record what is known to all, and cannot be doubted by any, that God, on the sixth h\day of Creation, having made man from the slime of the earth, and having breathed into his face the breath of life, gave him a companion whom he miraculously took from the side of Adam while he was asleep."
Pius XII also cites Pope Benedict XV's 'Spiritus Paraclitus' and his own 'Divino Afflante Spiritu' as guidelines detailing the appropriate interpretation of Scripture. (Line 24).
The Pope, with some annoyance, states that 'not a few insistently demand that the Catholic religion take these sciences into account as much as possible.' The Pope, no don’t, is referring to those who accuse the Catholic Church's Biblical position on Creation as being outdated in light of newer scientific finds. For the Catholic Church to take science into account as much as possible, would 'certainly be praiseworthy in the case of clearly proved facts.' Caution, he reminds his readers, must be used when it is rather a hypothesis. Any such hypotheses that are either directly or indirectly opposed to the Scriptures, then, according to Pius, 'the demand that they be recognized can in no way be admitted.' (Line 35).
Line 36 contains so much detail that I have broken it up into smaller pieces. Pius states that the Church does not forbid research and discussion, from individuals experienced in theology and science, on the doctrine of evolution. This even includes research and discussion on the origin of the human body from pre-existent and living matter. The Pope does remind us the Catholic faith does oblige us to hold to the belief that souls are immediately created by God.
The Pope states that any such discussion or research must include input from both sides of the debate (those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution), and that all ideas must be weighed and judged with seriousness, moderation and measure. However, as a prerequisite to any discussion, all involved must be prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church. But 'some rashly transgress this liberty of discussion when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution." (Line 36).
Discussion in some areas is possible but when it comes to a theory such as polygenism, there is no such discussion. That issue has been settled. "For all the faithful cannot embrace the opinion which maintains either that after Adam there existed on this earth true men who did not take origin through natural generation from him as the first parent of all, or that Adam represents a certain number of first parents." Pius states that he cannot see how such an opinion could be reconciled with the Scriptures and the Church's teaching on original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual, to and through every generation since. (Line 37).
Pius goes on to cite a letter by the Pontifical Commission of Biblical Studies sent to the Archbishop of Paris. The letter clearly states that the first eleven chapters of Genesis, while not conforming to the best Greek or Latin writers, or to competent writers of our time, does nevertheless pertain to history in a true sense. The letter states that these chapters were written in simple and sometimes metaphorical language adapted to the mentality of the people, who were not to cultured. The account does state the principal truths that are fundamental for our salvation while giving a good description for the origin of man. (Line 38).
The Pope completes his comments on Creation/Evolution by stating that 'the Sacred Scriptures must in no way be considered on par with myths or other such things which are more the product of an extravagant imagination then of the striving for truth and simplicity which are in the Sacred Books..." (Line 39).
C. Purpose and Importance of Humani Generis
According to Michael Rose, the editor of St.Catherine's Review, "Pope Pius XII 's encyclical Humani Generis, which addresses the subject of evolution as a theory which can be used to undermine the foundations of Catholic doctrine." It is not unreasonable to state the Pius did write Humani Generis, in part to expose the dangers of evolutionary thought. The year 1950, was the height of the Marxist terror, and this is why the Pope points to the communists as having a special enthusiasm for evolution. He states that communism uses evolution as a weapon to both defend and promote materialism.
By 1950 also, most people leaned towards evolutionary thought. In many ways, the Piltdown Man's discovery put the final nails in the creationist coffin. Theological opinion had also been bending, and the Roman Catholic Church was feeling pressure from within from the mystic Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. The Piltdown Man had not yet been revealed as a hoax, and so it took great courage for Pope Pius XII to stand up to all of the various challenges on this issue. (It took courage, yes, but having faced down the Nazis, his courage in this area is hardly surprising. It is only historical revisionism that has turned the Pope into a villain).
The Pope goes beyond the call of duty and encourages both theologians and scientists to discuss man's origins and even man's supposed evolution from pre-existing and living matter. Far from endorsing such a belief, the Pope criticizes those who hold such a faith belief as a proven, certain fact. The Pope insists that any taking part in the discussion must be willing to accept the Church's final judgment on any issue.
Humani Generis is a well-thought out and prudent document. Pius's goal is not to condemn evolution as absolutely impossible. For the Book of Genesis was not meant to be a scientifically based journal, but equally important is the Pope laying aside the 'Early Genesis is a Myth' legend and insisting on a literal interpretation. No doubt, Pius would also have wanted to avoid making the same mistakes his predecessor did in condemning the writings of Galileo.
In my opinion, the purpose of Humani Generis, in as far as it concerns evolution, is to clarify the most important teachings of Genesis and to correct the errors, which the Theory of Evolution has evoked due to its materialistic and atheistic leanings.
Some important clarifications for Christians who accept evolution are;
1. Nothing comes from nothing. Pius XII states that one must acknowledge God's supremacy in the creation of matter and in the design of the universe.
2. That God quite easily could have used evolution if he desired to, but it certainly would not have been out of any necessity imposed on him.
3. That the human soul is not the progress of evolution but is created directly by God and is infused into the body at the moment of conception.
4. That polygenism., which is the belief that there were originally multiple pairs of humans is false and undermines the Church's teachings on original sin and the need for a Redeemer.
If one can stay within the parameters of Scripture, then scientific investigation may speculate as to how God may have created the universe. Having given my permission, I truly believe that no true evolutionist would accept every requirement set by Pius XII. This is why I often say, much to the annoyance of evolutionists that the battle is not between religion and science. Rather it is between the science (which is Creationism) of one religion (Christianity) against the science (which is evolutionism) of another religion (atheism).
Sincerely
Apostle
[This message has been edited by Apostle, 02-13-2004]

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by MrHambre, posted 02-13-2004 9:54 PM Apostle has replied
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 02-14-2004 7:03 AM Apostle has replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1414 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 2 of 17 (86195)
02-13-2004 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Apostle
02-13-2004 6:43 PM


Why Apostle is Dead Wrong
Apostle,
So glad to have you back dropping pronouncements from on high. I'm relieved that you found a Pope whose scientific prejudice you could agree with, since the current Pope's cowardice on the subject of evolution was so repugnant to you.
Unfortunately you still haven't taken your head out of your, uh, Bible and confronted the reality of believers who not only accept the reality of evolution but have made names for themselves in the field of evolutionary biology. You're wrong that evolution can only be accepted by atheists, Apostle. Let me repeat that: You're wrong that evolution can only be accepted by atheists.
The Pope, whatever Pope, has the same right to his opinion as anyone else. However, empirical evidential inquiry isn't an excuse to believe whatever you want. In this typically excellent article, Kenneth Miller exposes the myth that science is antireligious, and asserts that Christianity and creationism are not the same thing. If you have evidence that shows that creationism is a viable scientific theory, then show us that evidence. Otherwise, your words don't mean much.

The dark nursery of evolution is very dark indeed.
Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Apostle, posted 02-13-2004 6:43 PM Apostle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by truthlover, posted 02-13-2004 11:28 PM MrHambre has not replied
 Message 5 by Apostle, posted 02-14-2004 5:05 PM MrHambre has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4081 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 3 of 17 (86202)
02-13-2004 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by MrHambre
02-13-2004 9:54 PM


Re: Why Apostle is Dead Wrong
Let me repeat that: You're wrong that evolution can only be accepted by atheists.
All I can say is: Thank God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by MrHambre, posted 02-13-2004 9:54 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 4 of 17 (86241)
02-14-2004 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Apostle
02-13-2004 6:43 PM


I notice that you provide no links and much of what you say is irrelevant - nbeither Teilhard de Chardin's views nor communism have any direct bearing on the scientiifc matters.
I also note that despite being unable to support the claim you still insist that the current Pope really agrees with you but did not say so out of cowardice. On the other hand on the evidence it seems to me that the Pope is not a coward and does not agree with you.
1. Nothing comes from nothing. Pius XII states that one must acknowledge God's supremacy in the creation of matter and in the design of the universe.
2. That God quite easily could have used evolution if he desired to, but it certainly would not have been out of any necessity imposed on him.
3. That the human soul is not the progress of evolution but is created directly by God and is infused into the body at the moment of conception.
4. That polygenism., which is the belief that there were originally multiple pairs of humans is false and undermines the Church's teachings on original sin and the need for a Redeemer.
I note that points 1-3 do not conflict with evolution in any way. THe only questionable issue is point 4. However point 4 is confused in that it is not clear with it denies polygenism as it is usually defined (multiple origins for modern humanity) or against the view that humanity evolved form a small population rather than a single couple. The former would only put it in conflict with the multiregional hypothesis (which is a minoroty view, anyway), and it must also be pointed out that the last major holdout for creationism within science - Aggasiz - also held to a polygenist view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Apostle, posted 02-13-2004 6:43 PM Apostle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Apostle, posted 02-14-2004 5:08 PM PaulK has replied

  
Apostle
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 17 (86313)
02-14-2004 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by MrHambre
02-13-2004 9:54 PM


Re: Why Apostle is Dead Wrong
Mr Hambre
I initially enjoyed your somewhat sarcastic response but I now fear in part that you may be misinterpreting what I wrote as well as attempting to dismiss what I have to say because of my pronouncements from on high. I feel such a view is unreasonable since I have been always very respectful to all those I disagree with, and can remember no hostile behavior towards you in particular.
Your first misunderstanding is this: That I am merely restating the words of Pope Pius XII because he is the only one I can find to agree with me. That is simply not true. Before, when I stated that the Roman Church did not endorse evolution (in the macroevolutionary sense), I not only stated that opinion but provided evidence which I believed supported such a statement. Individuals disagreed so I asked for literature showing a Catholic endorsement of Evolution. Pope Pius XII's encyclical Humani Generis was recommended as well as Pope John Paul II Pontifical Address to the Papal Academy of Sciences. I dealt with the latter first, gave my analysis and placed it under the miscellaneous section of this web page. I responded to those critics and when I felt that attention had died down, I proceeded to give my analysis to the encyclical Humani Generis. My analysis you have apparently read. So it is not a matter of finding a Pope who I could agree with, but simply responding to various individuals who had attempted to convince me that such a document supported a Catholic belief in evolution.
If you insist that I have found a Pope I can agree with in Pope Pius XII, you consequently disagree with the number of individuals who directed me toward Humani Generis when I asked for proof in literature of Catholic support for evolution. Are you comfortable with that?
Your comment about my taking my head out of my Bible is as unwarranted as your initial attack that I have just stated is uninformed. Also, I am aware of many believers in God who are in the field of evolutionary biology. Never did I say such people did not exist. I do intend to challenge them more on either their belief in their Creator or their belief in evolution. However if you have not yet noticed, my pronouncement from on high is somewhat lengthy (though you may say long-winded, if you wish), and I have not had time to address these individuals.
Once again you have misinterpreted my statements, and have told me strongly that I am wrong in stating that atheists can only accept evolution. Nowhere did I state that. Let me repeat that: Nowhere did I state that.
Your statement about any Pope having the same right to his opinion as anyone else, is of coarse correct, but is as equally unnecessary in mentioning as your informing me that religious people believe in evolution, or that evolution can only be accepted by atheists. You seem to believe that such statements will baffle me. If I took a poll here asking all to answer whether or not the Pope has the same right to his opinions as anyone else does, I would think it odd if even one told me he didn’t. If I took a poll asking whether religious people can believe in evolution, or if evolution can be accepted only by atheist, I would be shocked if even one answered No and Yes respectively.
I fear the reason for such baffling statements in your response lies in your wish to make it look as if I am unreasonable. Perhaps you wish to make others view me as the type of person who would answer so bizarrely in the poll I suggested above.
If I am as dead wrong as your title would indicate, then respond to my arguments, rather that develop strawman arguments, that will backfire on you when identified.
Having said that, the Pope's opinions in his papal encyclicals, are not merely his personal opinions. They are what he demands his Church follow. Pope Paul VII encyclical Humani Vitae was not merely intended to tell the world that he would not be practicing artificial forms of birth control. Rather it was written to tell his one billion fellow Catholics that his Church would not support birth control. Pius XII's Humani Generis does not merely offer his opinions on false teachings, but it demands Catholics pay attention and watch out for them (one of which he identifies as evolution).
I also agree with Kenneth Miller that science is not antireligious, and that Christianity and Creation are not the same thing. I would encourage all to follow such a belief of these two things that one would think is obvious. Having said that evidence for creationism as a scientific theory has no place in this particular debate. What was at stake is very little when compared. I was simply trying to show that Pope Pius XII's papal encyclical did not support evolution as many had told me when trying to show me that the Roman Church does support evolution.
One a whole, I am somewhat disappointed in the magnitude of your misunderstanding, and I feel that as hard as it might be, an apology is in order. I hope I have answered any legitimate complaints that you had in a respectful matter.
Sincerely
Apostle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by MrHambre, posted 02-13-2004 9:54 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by MrHambre, posted 02-15-2004 11:12 PM Apostle has replied

  
Apostle
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 17 (86314)
02-14-2004 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by PaulK
02-14-2004 7:03 AM


Paul
Any irrelevance is not because of what I wrote. Teilhard's views as well as communism were not at issue. Pius XII simply identified them, and my job analyzing his paper, was to mention them, because he mentioned them and placed them beside evolution. Pius, as I stated in my paper, did not mention Teilhard by name, but those familiar with the history of Humani Generis have little trouble realizing when Pius is referring to him.
I am not sure what you desire links to, but specify, and I will be happy to do what I can to comply.
Whether or not the current Pope agrees with me is best left to be discussed on another topic entitled Pope John Paul II address To The Papal Academy of Sciences. If you reintroduce something there, I will engage you in the debate. Also I do not believe the Pope is a coward. I likely stated that he showed some cowardice in not voicing his opposition to evolution in a more forceful way, though I realize he was attempting a diplomatic approach. Having said that, there are a few people around the world that I admire due to great moral courage or leadership. The Pope certainly is one of the top ones. (I can still disagree with people I admire, right?)
You say that points 1-3 do not conflict with evolution in any way. Actually, I disagree.
I think point one disagrees in a very important way with evolution, in that I feel that it finds itself in opposition to the Big Bang Theory. Most who believe in the Big Bang theory do not believe in God's supremacy over Creation or of his design of the universe. They credit Chance, and as Richard Dawkings says, many do this because one could be fulfilled intellectually by the claims of evolution. Chance is popular in part, because it does not require a Creator.
Points two and three, many scientists would leave alone, mostly because of a "Nonoverlapping Magesterium," which comes from the concept that religion answers religious questions, science answers scientific questions and the two do not overlap.
Polygenism is a belief that Pius forbid discussion on. His understanding was that it would be unacceptable to believe that certain individuals did not descend from Adam and Eve.
I do not know if you have read Humani Generis, but my analysis is from the viewpoint that Pius held little desire for his Church to change their views on Creation and embrace evolution.
Respectfully
Apostle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by PaulK, posted 02-14-2004 7:03 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by PaulK, posted 02-14-2004 5:42 PM Apostle has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 7 of 17 (86316)
02-14-2004 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Apostle
02-14-2004 5:08 PM


Point 1 does not conflict in nay way with the "Big Bang" and even if it did it would not be in conflict with evolution. The "Big Bang" is not , has never been and never will be a part of evolution.
And you're still accusing the Pope of cowardice because he didn't say what you wanted him to say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Apostle, posted 02-14-2004 5:08 PM Apostle has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1414 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 8 of 17 (86538)
02-15-2004 11:12 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Apostle
02-14-2004 5:05 PM


Re: Why Apostle is Dead Wrong
Apostle,
I am not a Catholic and so I have no interest in whether any Pope accepts evolution. However, you seem to take great pleasure in stating some Pope's opposition to the theory of evolution by natural selection. This obviously has some profound meaning in your life, as if the Pope's opinion on science is of any relevance to science itself.
I think this is actually the gist of your argument:
quote:
This is why I often say, much to the annoyance of evolutionists that the battle is not between religion and science. Rather it is between the science (which is Creationism) of one religion (Christianity) against the science (which is evolutionism) of another religion (atheism).
If this is not what you stated in message #1 of this thread, please disavow the statement immediately. Otherwise it's pretty obvious that you're drawing lines between believers and atheists, asserting that evolution is only compatible with atheism.
Your evasion and equivocation are indeed annoying to evolutionists, since many of them are in fact believers. Anyone who takes an honest look at the evidence should be persuaded that species evolve, and that inference is rarely accompanied by a loss of religious faith. I refuse to apologize to you for seeing through your feeble attempt to represent your views as being anything more than uninformed prejudice. If you and the Pope would like to tell us what we should believe concerning the development of life on Earth, I feel it's best that you support your statements with objective scientific reasoning.

The dark nursery of evolution is very dark indeed.
Brad McFall

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Apostle, posted 02-14-2004 5:05 PM Apostle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Apostle, posted 03-04-2004 10:54 PM MrHambre has replied

  
Apostle
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 17 (90421)
03-04-2004 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by MrHambre
02-15-2004 11:12 PM


Re: Why Apostle is Dead Wrong
Mr Hambre
The Pope's words on science have little bearing on the scientific community. Their importance comes with the fact that the Pope speaks and represents one billion Catholics. His half-hearted response is what I take issue with. Pius XII encyclical however is not half-hearted, but rather quite clear. I am merely trying to restate my opinion on what the Roman Church teaches about evolution by appealing to their authority.
Contrary to what you have chosen to believe, I did not say that evolution was only for athiesm. Rather I stated that evolution was the science of athiesm. I accept that many Christians, Jews, Hindu's etc... believe in the Theory of Evolution. I do not think it is compatible with the Judean belief or the Christian belief if that persons faith is placed in the Bible. You misquoted me earlier and if you refuse to apologize, I accept that, but would humbly ask that you not do distort my words again. You may find it a powerful debating technique, but it is not one opponents will appreciate.
Finally, I am merely trying to show that the Roman Church accepts a literal interpretation of Genesis, when discussing origins. I do not seek to defend that viewpoint at this time, but simply to show that this is where they stand. For that reason, I have given you my analysis of two important documents. ( Humani Generis, and the 1996 Address to the Papal Academy of Sciences). I would suggest you read both. When you do, I believe my examinations of each will make more sence. I will also be analyzing the Catechism as well as the work of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. This will provide you will the information needed to realize that the Roman Church does not accept Darwin's Theory of Evolution.
Apostle
[This message has been edited by Apostle, 03-04-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by MrHambre, posted 02-15-2004 11:12 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by MrHambre, posted 03-05-2004 7:19 AM Apostle has not replied
 Message 11 by nator, posted 03-05-2004 9:56 AM Apostle has not replied
 Message 12 by Brian, posted 03-05-2004 1:50 PM Apostle has replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1414 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 10 of 17 (90466)
03-05-2004 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Apostle
03-04-2004 10:54 PM


Re: Why Apostle is Dead Wrong
Apostle,
I still don't understand how creationism is the science of Christianity. If all these believers accept Darwin's theory, and even the Pope won't support creationism, it seems that your ideas don't reflect the philosophy of many Christians at all.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Apostle, posted 03-04-2004 10:54 PM Apostle has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2191 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 11 of 17 (90495)
03-05-2004 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Apostle
03-04-2004 10:54 PM


Re: Why Apostle is Dead Wrong
quote:
Finally, I am merely trying to show that the Roman Church accepts a literal interpretation of Genesis, when discussing origins.
No it doesn't.
I was raised Catholic, and there was never any conflict that I can remember. I was never taught that Genesis was literal. Never.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Apostle, posted 03-04-2004 10:54 PM Apostle has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 12 of 17 (90544)
03-05-2004 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Apostle
03-04-2004 10:54 PM


Re: Why Apostle is Dead Wrong
Just to echo Schraff's message. I really think you are mistaken here, I remember being surprised when I found out that Roman catholics do not take the Bible literally. One of the Pope's jobs is to interpret the Bible. I was reading ths old book that summarises it nicely.
The Reformation itself predisposed those Churches which came under its influence to accept the idea of verbal inspiration; for, having quarrelled with the Pope, and repudiated his authority as an interpreter of the text and arbiter of difficulties arising out of it, they had no oracle left to appeal to except the Bible, and they fondly imagined that they could use it as a judge uses a written code of law. As such a code must be consistent with itself, and free from internal contradictions, in order to be an effective instrument of government and administration, so must the Bible: and before long it was felt on all sides to be blasphemy to impute to a text which was now called outright " the Word of God any inconsistencies or imperfections. The Bible was held by Protestants to be a homogeneous whole dictated to its several writers, who were no more than passive organs of the Holy Spirit and amanuenses of God. "Scripture," wrote Ouenstedt (1617-1752), a pastor of Wittemberg. "is a fountain of infallible truth, and exempt from all error ; every word of it is absolutely true, whether expressive of dogma, of morality, or of history."
Such a view left to Protestants no loophole of allegory, and their divines have for generations striven to reconcile every one statement in the Bible with every other by harmonistic shifts and expedients which, in interpreting other documents, they would disdain to use.
(Conybeare F. C. History of New Testament Criticism London: Watts & Co. 1910. pp.15-16)
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Apostle, posted 03-04-2004 10:54 PM Apostle has replied

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 Message 13 by Apostle, posted 03-07-2004 10:17 AM Brian has not replied

  
Apostle
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 17 (90923)
03-07-2004 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Brian
03-05-2004 1:50 PM


Re: Why Apostle is Dead Wrong
Brian,
I wonder if you are confusing the general Protestant thought of 'Sola Scriptura,' which Catholics refuse, with a literal interpretation of the Bible which the Roman church accepts.
Remember the Roman Church had received condemnation from many for their literal interpretation of the Last Super, where Jesus pointed to the communion and told his followers that it was his Body and Blood.
Catholics, I know many, accept what the Bible says to be literally true. I could quote you the Catechism, many Saints, as well as numerous Papal Encyclicals. However this would get away from the topic at hand.
Catholics also accept a literal Creation, but some do feel that this can be reconciled with the Theory of Evolution. Nonetheless, the Church leaders have been clear in condemning the Theory of Evolution. As evidence you may look to 'Humani Generis,' or Pope John Paul Papal Adress (however weak), or you may also appeal to the Catechism.
Apostle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Brian, posted 03-05-2004 1:50 PM Brian has not replied

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 Message 16 by paisano, posted 04-21-2005 2:14 PM Apostle has not replied

  
Specter
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 17 (200913)
04-21-2005 9:58 AM


Will Someone Please Help Me?
Will one of you please tell me what this thread is based on?

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 04-21-2005 10:19 AM Specter has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 17 (200915)
04-21-2005 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Specter
04-21-2005 9:58 AM


Re: Will Someone Please Help Me?
It's based on a reading of the 1950 Encyclical

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Specter, posted 04-21-2005 9:58 AM Specter has not replied

  
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