New Big Bang Theory

yzend1Sorry, see see below for my other posts.Thanks

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[This message has been edited by yzend1, 07-16-2002]

First of all, you probably should have a discussion with Brad McFall.Moose

My ThoughtsWe Exist For A ReasonI do not think the universe could have come into existence without an intelligent being creating it. If there was nothing before the Big Bang, then there would be no reason for the Big Bang to happen, and hence the universe would not exist. However, the universe does indeed exist, so there must have been an intelligence who created it.GodOn the one hand, this intelligence may be God. God would have the ability to do anything. So if God decided to bring the universe into existence, he/she/it could do it. This would explain everything that there has been and will be. This may include a heaven as well as inhabited planets.ScientistsOn the other hand, there seems to me to be another possibility. Suppose, in the future, scientists designed and constructed a Big Bang Machine, sent it back in time to the beginning (year dot), triggered it, thereby creating the Big Bang, from which stars and
planets formed, on which life evolved, giving rise to intelligent beings, who produced scientists (human/alien), who in the future designed and constructed a Big Bang Machine. This suggests that without human/alien intelligence the universe would be non-existent. However, if the organised, human/alien intelligence was clever enough, it could perhaps devise a way of bringing itself into existence. This may be possible because organised intelligence is like a ‘force’ providing it can apply itself in it’s created reality, and this ‘force’ may be sufficient to create itself and it’s reality.The Big Bang MachineScientists would have to ultimately construct a Big Bang Machine from it’s own created reality, and design it in such a way as to generate a universe with specific properties, to enable it to ultimately create intelligence, and allow the machine to be constructed and
used with the intended effect. Hence, the properties of the universe could possibly be generated by the machine in such a way as to allow them to be manipulated by the created intelligence.Survival Of The Created IntelligenceIn the event that there is a limit to the existence of the intelligence (eg. death), the intelligence could devise a way to prolong it’s own existence for eternity. This could possibly be achieved by how the properties of the created reality (universe) allow for the eternal life of the intelligence, or by the intelligence designing and constructing a second stage of reality (a man-made heaven) for itself once the intelligence is existing,
and ensuring that all the intelligent components (humans/aliens/animals) survive in this ‘other’ reality for eternity once they cease existing in the first stage reality. There could
quite possible be an infinite number of stages, designed and generated by their previous stage.The KeyThe questions are:-
In the future, will organised intelligence be clever enough to design a machine from the existing ‘designed’ reality with it’s existing ‘designed’ properties, that will actually generate, from nothing, a universe of these same designed properties? It is assumed
that time is a designed property and that it’s manipulative, in order to allow the Big Bang Machine to be sent back to the beginning (year dot).
Can we design a second stage of reality to enable the consciousness of every being that ever existed to be transferrer to it, in appropiate consciousness containers, at their time of death?A Locks and Bolts Universe
If the answer to these questions is no, then, since I cant understand how the Big Bang could of happened of it’s own accord from nothing, I would believe in God, thank him for my time here, and look forward to the afterlife in heaven if that’s his will. But as it is, following from the above discussion, I declare myself an Agnostic.Thanks for your timeyzend1

ChoiceI’m suggesting that for humans/aliens to exist requires either the existence of God or a destiny in which a Big Bang Machine will be designed, constructed and implemented. In the case of God existing, a heaven may await us all. In the case of the Big Bang Machine, perhaps a second stage to reality may also be designed and implemented.
Eitherway, an afterlife seems to be a genuine possiblity. In the event that the Big Bang Machine cannot be created, then I suggest we have no alternative but to acknowledge the existence of God.Thanks for your timeyzend1

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[This message has been edited by yzend1, 07-16-2002]

I am at a loss as to what exactly your 'big bang machine' really is. Does not a 'machine' imply a mechanically operating device. A system of various elements working together to produce (it seems) a big bang? I fail to see how this would at all apply to any realistic event.------------------

The Big Bang Machine would be an extremely advanced, technological, piece of equipment. It would be designed to create the Big Bang from absolutley nothing, giving the universe intentional properties.The Big Bang Machine could be designed & built be humans or aliens. A very advanced society would be required. If humans are to design and build it, then perhaps it will take 1 billion years or 1000 billion years. Who Knows?

"The Big Bang Machine would be an extremely advanced, technological, piece of equipment. It would be designed to create the Big Bang from absolutley nothing, giving the universe intentional properties.The Big Bang Machine could be designed & built be humans or aliens. A very advanced society would be required. If humans are to design and build it, then perhaps it will take 1 billion years or 1000 billion years. Who Knows?"
--Hm.. allrighty then. Now may you tell me exactly what the point of conjuring up such a hypothesis if it is nonsense when applied to reality? You have no materials, let alone space alone for you or especially previously existing aliens or humans(Humans!?). Not very realistic if you ask me.------------------

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:

--Hm.. allrighty then. Now may you tell me exactly what the point of conjuring up such a hypothesis if it is nonsense when applied to reality? You have no materials, let alone space alone for you or especially previously existing aliens or humans(Humans!?). Not very realistic if you ask me.

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Yeah, I agree.What is the point of this thought experiment? I've been following this thread thying to figure it out.------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

Lets consider an alternative series of events in which there was no Big Bang and that, therefore, this universe is not present, and that, therefore, there is 'nothing'.Q1. What is nothing?Q2. In this 'nothing' is it possible that an intelligence or group
of intelligences could devise a way to bring themselves into existence?Q3. If so, how could they possibly do it?Q4. Then, getting back to reality and our universe, is there any exidence in the present that verifies that scientists in the future could have done this?

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Originally posted by yzend1:
Lets consider an alternative series of events in which there was no Big Bang and that, therefore, this universe is not present, and that, therefore, there is 'nothing'.

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Q1. What is nothing?

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Q2. In this 'nothing' is it possible that an intelligence or group
of intelligences could devise a way to bring themselves into existence?

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Q3. If so, how could they possibly do it?

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Q4. Then, getting back to reality and our universe, is there any exidence in the present that verifies that scientists in the future could have done this?

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How about you take a shot at your own questions and we'll go from there?------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

"Lets consider an alternative series of events in which there was no Big Bang and that, therefore, this universe is not present, and that, therefore, there is 'nothing'."
--Your making some very odd and, IMO, ridiculous threads of logic. If we cannot start with at least the good reasonable assumption that there is an entity of existence, ie, this universe and we exist, then I see no point and arguing in such a flighty direction. As for your questions:"Q1. What is nothing?"
--Nothing is non-existence, no matter the entity."Q2. In this 'nothing' is it possible that an intelligence or group
of intelligences could devise a way to bring themselves into existence?"
--No, you have non existence, so you don't have intelligence. Also If I may be technically correct, in a state of nothingness/non-existence, there is no reason to make a statement about its characteristics as it does not exist. In that, the atheist would say nothing existed (unless he wishes to play the game of semantics) and for the theist, technically, there never was 'nothing'."Q3. If so, how could they possibly do it?
--If you can answer this one, that would be nice."Then, getting back to reality and our universe, "
--I thought you said there was no universe if there never was a big bang? Thus, no reality, eh?"is there any exidence in the present that verifies that scientists in the future could have done this?"
--I'm not aware of anything that can even point a finger out of the realm of the art of language class.
--By the way, I'll be gone this Sunday for about a week so I'll answer some posts when I get back if I get any. Or I could get a recommendation for what posts anyone would feel that my incite would be great for discussion.------------------

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TrueCreation:
[b]
"Q2. In this 'nothing' is it possible that an intelligence or group
of intelligences could devise a way to bring themselves into existence?"
--No, you have non existence, so you don't have intelligence. Also If I may be technically correct, in a state of nothingness/non-existence, there is no reason to make a statement about its characteristics as it does not exist. In that, the atheist would say nothing existed (unless he wishes to play the game of semantics) and for the theist, technically, there never was 'nothing'.[/QUOTE][/b]Expanding upon what TB brought up....If we start with nothing and assume that our universe was created by time travellers, you end up with no universe. If we start with nothing and have no big bang to start things off, we stay at nothing. There is no universe in which these hypothetical super scientists could evolve and build thier big-bang-a-tron. No universe, no time travellers, hence no time travellers to create the universe and start the whole process.------------------
www.hells-handmaiden.com

Pretty much, yuppers!------------------

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Originally posted by TrueCreation:
Pretty much, yuppers!

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Ok, lets consider that we have the latest supercomputer in 1 to 5 billion years time (just before the sun goes supernovae). So we create a simulation of what it would be like with no Big Bang. Then it would be interesting to see if 'simulation intelligences' could make something out of this simulation, and in the process create themselves.Apparently, Math does not prohibit something out of nothing, since -1+1=0. When this is applied to the physical universe (or the simulation) then perhaps all that is needed is for 'intelligences' to CONTROL the '-1+1=0' LAW, and if CONTROLLED in perhaps x out of y ways, this will lead to the creation of themselves within a certain reality.

"Ok, lets consider that we have the latest supercomputer in 1 to 5 billion years time (just before the sun goes supernovae). So we create a simulation of what it would be like with no Big Bang. Then it would be interesting to see if 'simulation intelligences' could make something out of this simulation, and in the process create themselves.Apparently, Math does not prohibit something out of nothing, since -1+1=0. When this is applied to the physical universe (or the simulation) then perhaps all that is needed is for 'intelligences' to CONTROL the '-1+1=0' LAW, and if CONTROLLED in perhaps x out of y ways, this will lead to the creation of themselves within a certain reality."
--I think the problem with your first comments was that it were based on wishful thinking. Now applying your second comment you have a problem because you either cannot have an initial condition of -1 because you now have something with a negative property, or that simply is not applicable to reality. And since you start out with something with a characteristic of intelligence, you are not starting out with 'nothing' but you have something, you need to start from nothing.------------------