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Author
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Topic: Darwin's finches still providing evidence for evolution
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 829 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 1 of 12 (542019)
01-07-2010 9:46 AM
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Finches on the Galapagos have been found to have built up an immunity to newly introduced parasites: a pox virus and a nest fly. the next step is to determine whether this immunity is helping or harming them. Either scenario is another solid bit of evidence for evolution as these animals have had minimal human contact.
Unlike Hawaii and other island groups, no native bird has gone extinct in the Galapagos Islands, although some are in danger. Now, University of Utah biologists have found that finches -- the birds Darwin studied -- develop antibodies against two parasites that moved to the Galapagos, suggesting the birds can fight the alien invaders. The Galapagos is "the most famous group of islands that hasn't had any native birds go extinct yet," Clayton says. "Many of the native species in Hawaii, for example, have gone extinct because of humans," who introduced mosquitoes with malaria as well as predators such as cats and rats, destroyed habitat and hunted birds for feathers. Source
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2 by Huntard, posted 01-07-2010 9:49 AM | | hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied | | | Message 3 by Peepul, posted 01-07-2010 10:03 AM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2322 days) Posts: 2870 From: Limburg, The Netherlands Joined: 09-02-2008
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They're still finches!  Thanks for the link mate.
I hunt for the truth I am the one Orgasmatron, the outstretched grasping hand My image is of agony, my servants rape the land Obsequious and arrogant, clandestine and vain Two thousand years of misery, of torture in my name Hypocrisy made paramount, paranoia the law My name is called religion, sadistic, sacred whore. -Lyrics by Lemmy Kilmister of Motorhead
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by hooah212002, posted 01-07-2010 9:46 AM | | hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied |
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Peepul
Member (Idle past 5045 days) Posts: 206 Joined: 03-13-2009
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Hooah, Their immunity might have developed in the standard way - this would not involve any evolution. Or is there evidence that something else is involved?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by hooah212002, posted 01-07-2010 9:46 AM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 829 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 4 of 12 (542024)
01-07-2010 10:08 AM
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Reply to: Message 3 by Peepul
01-07-2010 10:03 AM
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I'm curious if you bothered to read the article.....had you read it, you would not ask that.
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by Peepul, posted 01-07-2010 10:03 AM | | Peepul has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 5 by Peepul, posted 01-07-2010 10:10 AM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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Peepul
Member (Idle past 5045 days) Posts: 206 Joined: 03-13-2009
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I didn't - but you shouldn't expect me to. You need to make the argument in your own words.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by hooah212002, posted 01-07-2010 10:08 AM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 829 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 6 of 12 (542027)
01-07-2010 10:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Peepul
01-07-2010 10:10 AM
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I'm not making ANY "argument". (take note of where I posted this"). I personally don't see any argument to be found.
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Peepul, posted 01-07-2010 10:10 AM | | Peepul has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 7 by Peepul, posted 01-07-2010 10:14 AM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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Peepul
Member (Idle past 5045 days) Posts: 206 Joined: 03-13-2009
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Ok, then 'statement' rather than 'argument'.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by hooah212002, posted 01-07-2010 10:12 AM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 829 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 8 of 12 (542030)
01-07-2010 10:20 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by Peepul
01-07-2010 10:14 AM
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I suppose (although I posted this as an interesting article and not a debate topic with the intention of other members reading it for their enjoyment). The article points out that the finches have developed an immunity to a specific parasites, not just general immunities.
Earlier studies found immune responses by birds injected with a foreign substance, but those responses are general, not specific to a real parasite, Clayton adds On Daphne Major, the Grants, Huber and Koop captured 30 finches and noted whether the birds had pox sores or signs of prior pox infection, like scarring or lost toes. On Santa Cruz, they examined finches before and during nesting, which is when the birds are exposed to fly larvae that infest their nests. They captured 37 birds exposed to nest fly larvae, and 76 that were not. They found 96 percent of nests were infested. Finches on Daphne Major had an antibody response to pox virus three times stronger than the response by Santa Cruz finches, which showed no signs of the virus.
Finches on Santa Cruz that were tested during nesting had an antibody response to nest flies 1.7 times stronger than the response by birds tested before nesting. Happy?
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by Peepul, posted 01-07-2010 10:14 AM | | Peepul has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 9 by Peepul, posted 01-07-2010 10:28 AM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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Peepul
Member (Idle past 5045 days) Posts: 206 Joined: 03-13-2009
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Hooah, I really don't think this is an instance of evolution. It's just saying that birds have the capacity to develop an immune response to specific parasites. Or am I missing something? I did actually read the article this time
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 8 by hooah212002, posted 01-07-2010 10:20 AM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 829 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 10 of 12 (542034)
01-07-2010 10:36 AM
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Reply to: Message 9 by Peepul
01-07-2010 10:28 AM
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I'm perplexed. What is it if not evolution? What else would it be? They were shown to naturally acquire an immune response to a new invader. I gather you are implying it just kinda happened that way for no reason? I admit I am not extremely well versed in biology, so I feel I can't explain it well enough.
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by Peepul, posted 01-07-2010 10:28 AM | | Peepul has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 11 by Peepul, posted 01-07-2010 11:09 AM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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Peepul
Member (Idle past 5045 days) Posts: 206 Joined: 03-13-2009
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Hi Hooah, I'm not an expert on immunity either, but I do know that the capability to develop immune responses to particular infections does not depend on evolution - animals have a general capability to do this 'built in'. When they are exposed to an infection, immune system cells respond by binding to alien proteins, and this ends up triggering development of more cells that do the same. When these cells bind to the alien cells, other immune system cells then engulf and destroy them.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by hooah212002, posted 01-07-2010 10:36 AM | | hooah212002 has replied |
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 829 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: 08-12-2009
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Message 12 of 12 (542046)
01-07-2010 11:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 11 by Peepul
01-07-2010 11:09 AM
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I see your point. Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.
Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people -Carl Sagan For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. -Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 11 by Peepul, posted 01-07-2010 11:09 AM | | Peepul has not replied |
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