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Author Topic:   Libya
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1 of 33 (609483)
03-20-2011 6:47 PM


The coalition enforcing the no-fly zone over Libya seems to have already forgotten the goal of preventing Gadhafi from using his air force against the civilian Libyan population. The French took out four tanks yesterday, not known for flight, and there has already been talk about how removing Gadhafi from power might come about. The Arab League whose request for a no-fly zone helped spur the United Nations into action has already criticized the coalition for going beyond the scope of the UN mandate.
When will the western world learn that righting wrongs takes far more than firepower.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 2 of 33 (609484)
03-20-2011 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
03-20-2011 6:47 PM


And that quick solutions and externally imposed solutions are almost always the wrong solution.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 3 of 33 (609488)
03-20-2011 7:33 PM


It is so short-sighted. If the Libyans don't see themselves as being responsible for the taking of power they won't have a sense of ownership for whatever comes out of this.
Why do we keep making the same stupid mistakes? You have to start to wonder if the consipracy theorists aren't right and it is the weapons manufacturers that are calling the shots. (Probably not true but I can sure see why many think it is.)

  
Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 4 of 33 (609502)
03-20-2011 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
03-20-2011 6:47 PM


From what I can see the resolution
demands the immediate establishment of a ceasefire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians;
imposes a no-fly zone over Libya;
authorises all necessary means to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas, except for a "foreign occupation force";
strengthens the arms embargo and particularly action against mercenaries, by allowing for forcible inspections of ships and planes;
imposes a ban on all Libyan-designated flights;
imposes an asset freeze on assets owned by the Libyan authorities, and reaffirms that such assets should be used for the benefit of the Libyan people;
extends the travel ban and assets freeze of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1970 to a number of additional individuals and Libyan entities;
establishes a panel of experts to monitor and promote sanctions implementation.
Source
Qadhafi is a terrorist and a thug and should be killed off. What amazes me is the blatant hypocrisy of it all. I guess the way it works is that you sell some nut job lots of guns and tanks and then you blow them up, install a new nut job and then sell him lots of guns and tanks and then...
Arms sales to Libya
In reality, how can we spend $1.3 trillion/yr on our armies and not expect to shoot some of them guns?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 03-20-2011 6:47 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Percy, posted 03-21-2011 7:49 AM Dogmafood has replied
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 03-21-2011 11:04 AM Dogmafood has replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 5 of 33 (609524)
03-21-2011 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
03-20-2011 6:47 PM


My question is there are so many bad dictators in the world like Omar Al-bashi in Sudan. A whole lot of countries that could benefit from military involvement of the NATO pact. And practically none do, tough when a country that has resources like oil has a civil ware NATO jumps on its white horse to protect its interests and claims it is doing it to help the civilians.
Im not saying that Libyans dictator should not be removed from power im saying dont say you are doing it for the people cause it is a lie.

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 6 of 33 (609526)
03-21-2011 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dogmafood
03-20-2011 11:00 PM


Thanks for posting this, it helps to see the specific terms of the resolution, which appears to be an excellent example of the age old adage, "Be careful what you ask for." The Arab League asked for a no-fly zone and got a UN resolution authorizing "all necessary means to protect civilians" with only a "foreign occupation force" being off-limits, so I assume any ground-based special-ops would be within the guidelines of the resolution.
What is the difference between a rebel and a civilian? It sounds like if Gadhafi uses force against the rebels, the coalition is authorized under the term of the UN resolution to take action. This is like breaking a mirror, I think we've just guaranteed ourselves seven more years of Arab hatred.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by cavediver, posted 03-21-2011 9:38 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 7 of 33 (609529)
03-21-2011 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Percy
03-21-2011 7:49 AM


This was a perfect case of damned if you do, damned if you don't. The Arab cries and *demands* for assistance have been incessant over the past weeks (if you follow the live feeds on the BBC), as have the cries and *demands* that Western forces keep away...
quote:
1329: Mohamed, in Misrata, says:"This tyrant (Col Gaddafi) is fooling the world with his lies about cease fire. He is still destroying Misrata today and he has more than 200 snipers terrorising the city - using laser guided rifles. We call on the international community to go all the way and help us topple the dictator."
quote:
1058: Salah, a Tripoli resident, tells the BBC that Col Gaddafi is a symbol of safety and security. He says he does not want to be ruled by the east of the country, and instead there should be negotiations. "Three days ago I could have told you about different opinions in Tripoli. But now we all stand for Libya. It's not about Gaddafi, it's a war between Libya and France, the US and UK.
quote:
0954: Mansaf, from Jordan, says:"This is the kind of action that the whole Arab world will look at favourably. By helping the people of Libya fight for their freedom and independence, the West are showing that they are in full support of the public demands of the Arab street. Such actions will eventually change Arab opinion of the West for the better, and will make it much more difficult for terrorist organisations to attract the under-educated masses.

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 33 (609536)
03-21-2011 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Dogmafood
03-20-2011 11:00 PM


Dogmafood writes:
From what I can see the resolution
demands the immediate establishment of a ceasefire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians;
imposes a no-fly zone over Libya;
authorises all necessary means to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas, except for a "foreign occupation force";
strengthens the arms embargo and particularly action against mercenaries, by allowing for forcible inspections of ships and planes;
imposes a ban on all Libyan-designated flights;
imposes an asset freeze on assets owned by the Libyan authorities, and reaffirms that such assets should be used for the benefit of the Libyan people;
extends the travel ban and assets freeze of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1970 to a number of additional individuals and Libyan entities;
establishes a panel of experts to monitor and promote sanctions implementation.
Source
Gaddhafi is a terrorist and a thug and should be killed off. What amazes me is the blatant hypocrisy of it all. I guess the way it works is that you sell some nut job lots of guns and tanks and then you blow them up, install a new nut job and then sell him lots of guns and tanks and then...
Arms sales to Libya
In reality, how can we spend $1.3 trillion/yr on our armies and not expect to shoot some of them guns?
We and our NATO allies should not have intervened in either Egypt or Lybia's affairs, nor should we have occupied Iraq and Afganistan.
Both dictators, Mubarak and Gaddafi were at least abiding by the peace treaty with Israel and neither were attacking us or our interests. Both were important sources of our oil.
The problem in taking out both dictators is the alternative, which will most assuredly be the militant Jehadist/shariah Muslim Brotherhood allied with and supported by Iran.
Prophetically, this is all about establishing the emerging global pro-Muslim/Russia coalition army of the New World Order, i.e. the 10 horned beast of Revelation 13.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 13 by Dogmafood, posted 03-21-2011 8:18 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 15 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-21-2011 11:54 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 9 of 33 (609538)
03-21-2011 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by cavediver
03-21-2011 9:38 AM


cavediver writes:
This was a perfect case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Yes, that was my impression. And that's why I am taking a "wait and see" attitude.

Jesus was a liberal hippie

This message is a reply to:
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Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3977
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


Message 10 of 33 (609548)
03-21-2011 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
03-21-2011 11:04 AM


Buz writes:
Both dictators, Mubarak and Gaddafi were at least abiding by the peace treaty with Israel and neither were attacking us or our interests. Both were important sources of our oil.
Neither are important sources of oil for the U.S.
Israel is perfectly capable of defending itself--that's why the "peace" has lasted.
The problem in taking out both dictators is the alternative, which will most assuredly be the militant Jehadist/shariah Muslim Brotherhood allied with and supported by Iran.
The worst terrorist strikes against the U.S. came from our good friends the Saudis.
Supporting a dictator against legitimate national aspirations created contemporary Iran; supporting dictators who suppress movements for democracy has never worked out well for the U.S.
Prophetically, this is all about establishing the emerging global pro-Muslim/Russia coalition army of the New World Order, i.e. the 10 horned beast of Revelation 13.
Tee. Hee.


Dost thou think, because thou art virtuous, there shall be no more cakes and ale?
-Shakespeare
Real things always push back.
-William James

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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 11 of 33 (609572)
03-21-2011 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Percy
03-21-2011 7:49 AM


Percy writes:
Thanks for posting this, it helps to see the specific terms of the resolution, which appears to be an excellent example of the age old adage, "Be careful what you ask for." The Arab League asked for a no-fly zone and got a UN resolution authorizing "all necessary means to protect civilians" with only a "foreign occupation force" being off-limits, so I assume any ground-based special-ops would be within the guidelines of the resolution.
What is the difference between a rebel and a civilian? It sounds like if Gadhafi uses force against the rebels, the coalition is authorized under the term of the UN resolution to take action. This is like breaking a mirror, I think we've just guaranteed ourselves seven more years of Arab hatred.
I think that is right on the money. In addition if this is viewed by the Arabs, and particularly the people of Syria, as a victory for and by the west, rather than a victory for the people of Syria then IMHO, in the medium and long term it will cause considerable damage to the hopes and aspirations of others in that part of the world that desire freedom from oppresive regimes. It will also of course, as you point out, damage even further for years to come the position of western countries in that part of the world.
I just don't know what they're thinking unless, and I sure hope I'm wrong, that there are those with a vested interest in this type of conflict that are driving it.
AbE: In my view the establishment of a no-fly zone on its own would have been a good thing, but as you said Percy they have gone well beyond that.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Percy, posted 03-21-2011 7:49 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 12 of 33 (609632)
03-21-2011 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Percy
03-21-2011 7:49 AM


What is the difference between a rebel and a civilian? It sounds like if Gadhafi uses force against the rebels, the coalition is authorized under the term of the UN resolution to take action. This is like breaking a mirror, I think we've just guaranteed ourselves seven more years of Arab hatred.
Perhaps but they probably hate ‘us’ already. If any military action in the past decade has been justified I would say that this one is. I am surprised and encouraged that we could respond as rapidly as we did. The coalition is taking out individual tanks and trucks and buildings. Qaddafi is shelling cities.
We are, as the people of the world, responsible, to some degree, for allowing tyrants like this to rule for 40 yrs. For selling him guns and buying his oil and holding his money. Some of ‘us’ more than others and the Arab states right in there. Regardless, I think it is a good thing that the rest of ‘us’ put a stop to the shelling of cities. We can talk about it after that is accomplished.
I agree that the Libyans need to take their freedom themselves. I know that if I was fighting for mine I would appreciate all the help that I could get.

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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 13 of 33 (609637)
03-21-2011 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
03-21-2011 11:04 AM


World Ends Tommorrow At Noon, 9:00 PST
Hey Buzz.
We and our NATO allies should not have intervened in either Egypt...
Did we intervene in Egypt? I mean beyond the fact that we are knee deep in Egypt. It seems to me that the Egyptians have pretty much done it themselves.
Prophetically, this is all about establishing the emerging global pro-Muslim/Russia coalition army of the New World Order, i.e. the 10 horned beast of Revelation 13.
I always took the book of Revelation to be one man’s dream about his own demise. It comes to us all.
In my opinion, the first step toward securing your earth bound future and that of your grandchildren is to accept responsibility for it. Shouldn’t the rest of the world go after these despots and tyrants? Weed them out? Stop profiting from the misery of their subjects?
At the risk of tumbling down the rabbit hole, would one world government be such a bad thing?
Edited by Dogmafood, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 14 of 33 (609642)
03-21-2011 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dogmafood
03-21-2011 8:18 PM


Re: World Ends Tommorrow At Noon, 9:00 PST.
For dearest Buzz....
The World ended 17 days ago. Where were you? We had a big wake. Lots of major booze and super clean drugs were consumed. It was a great party. Lasted about 6 days. All the best people were there. We missed you. There were several beautiful women asking for you, but all I could say was "I dunno - he should be here any minute...."

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 15 of 33 (609658)
03-21-2011 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Buzsaw
03-21-2011 11:04 AM


The problem in taking out both dictators is the alternative, which will most assuredly be the militant Jehadist/shariah Muslim Brotherhood ...
The Brotherhood's nonviolent stance has resulted in breakaway groups from the movement, including the Al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya and Al Takfir Wal Hijra. Osama bin Laden has similarly criticized the Brotherhood, and accused it of betraying jihad ...
... allied with and supported by Iran.
The M.B. are Sunnis.
Prophetically, this is all about establishing the emerging global pro-Muslim/Russia coalition army of the New World Order, i.e. the 10 horned beast of Revelation 13.
Well that's good, then. Isn't the end of the world something you're meant to be looking forward to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Buzsaw, posted 03-21-2011 11:04 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
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