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Author Topic:   Time and Beginning to Exist
PaulK
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Message 1 of 4 (641761)
11-22-2011 10:21 AM


The purpose of this topic is to discuss the notion "Everything that begins to exist has a cause" and it's relationship to our Universe and the implications of a finite past.
"Everything that begins to exist has a cause" is an intuitive idea, notably lacking a rigorous definition of "beginning to exist". We must take it then, to refer to the beginnings of everyday experience. In everyday experience the thing does not exist, the cause operates and then the thing exists. And, intuitively the cause is responsible for the change from the state where the object in question does not exist to a state where it does.
Now consider the case of the first moment of time. For everything that exists at that moment of time there is no prior state when it did not exist, and if a cause is needed it is not needed to bring the object into existence, for that simple reason that it already exists. Thus if we take these objects to have a beginning it is one different from the every day beginnings - and in a way that would seem to remove the need for a cause.
To save the argument then, we need a rigorous definition of "beginning to exist", we need to show that it is in fact true that everything that meets this definition has a cause - taking care to deal with the extreme cases - and we need to accept this definition when building on the argument.

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 Message 2 by Admin, posted 11-23-2011 8:28 AM PaulK has replied

Admin
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Message 2 of 4 (641882)
11-23-2011 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by PaulK
11-22-2011 10:21 AM


How would you address the slightly different formulation, "Everything that happens has a cause"?
About this sentence from the third paragraph:
PaulK writes:
For everything that exists at that moment of time there is no prior state when it did not exist, and if a cause is needed it is not needed to bring the object into existence, for that simple reason that it already exists.
You're talking about the first moment in time, so shouldn't the reason why no cause is needed be that there was no prior time for a cause to operate?
Edited by Admin, : Remove manual sig.

--Percy
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by PaulK, posted 11-22-2011 10:21 AM PaulK has replied

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 Message 3 by PaulK, posted 11-23-2011 8:33 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

PaulK
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Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 3 of 4 (641884)
11-23-2011 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
11-23-2011 8:28 AM


quote:
How would you address the slightly different formulation, "Everything that happens has a cause"?
It seems to be covered by the same argument. If the universe didn't come into existence, then that isn't something that happened.
quote:
You're talking about the first moment in time, so shouldn't the reason why no cause is needed be that there was no prior time for a cause to operate?
No. I think that the argument I used is a little stronger, since it can't be attacked by arguing for simultaneous causation (which is the common response).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 11-23-2011 8:28 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Admin
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Message 4 of 4 (641924)
11-23-2011 7:06 PM


Thread Copied to Big Bang and Cosmology Forum
Thread copied to the Time and Beginning to Exist thread in the Big Bang and Cosmology forum, this copy of the thread has been closed.

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