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Author Topic:   What is the I in ID?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 1 of 165 (115367)
06-15-2004 1:05 PM


I would like to propose a challenge to what seems to me to be slipshod thinking on the part of Intelligent Design advocates. We have heard the point over and over again that they "see" ID everywhere they look.
I would like them to come up with a plausible mechanism by which this intelligence manifests itself in the ID they claim they see. I feel that this is only fair since evolutionary theory brings a mechanism to bear on its model.

You paddle your kayak up the river from your camp to fetch your camera which you left on a rock upstream a bit. The river flows at a uniform 2 mi/hr. You paddle (on still water) at a uniform 3 mi/hr. It takes 30 minutes to reach your camera. If you paddle all the way back to your camp, how long will the return trip take?

Replies to this message:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 165 (115394)
06-15-2004 2:42 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
jar
Member (Idle past 384 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 3 of 165 (115404)
06-15-2004 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
06-15-2004 1:05 PM


I came.
I did.
I saw.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 4 of 165 (115593)
06-16-2004 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
06-15-2004 2:57 PM


jar
LOL thanks for the light touch. I expect that will be about as deep a response as I will get on the subject but at least we can have a laugh at it.

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 Message 3 by jar, posted 06-15-2004 2:57 PM jar has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 5 of 165 (115603)
06-16-2004 2:50 AM


i vote we petition free press to retitle "darwin's black box" to read "behe's black box" since he himself offers no mechanism for creation.
also, i would like the same proof hovid asks for evolution. get god to create another universe in lab conditions. or at least tell him we want an interview.

  
kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3810 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 6 of 165 (115899)
06-16-2004 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
06-15-2004 1:05 PM


not so intelligent myself...
I am not smart enough to understand the question for sure, but I will answer this which may not be what you are looking for.
1) First, let me insist that at present, we have no scientific definitionfor intelligence, the I in ID. The dictionary is little help with explanations like "good mental capacity."
2) The ID people may fight back on (1), and I wish they would, but in an scientific discussion, intelligence needs more than a vague dictionary meaning anyway, it DEMANDS a measurable quality of some sort, and even in the humanity of psychology, IQ is considered merely an aptitute for academics.
3) Without such as definition, I have avoided even talking about the subject of ID, certain that it attractst he least scientific posters here.
4) If this is on target, that is, about your posted inquiry, I would suggest that what intelligence is, may be defined as, is the utilization of human thinking which accurately parallels the reality that exists beyond our mind. I would clarify further in saying that we are actually a mind, the software operating system to the hardware of the physical brain. Locked in the darkness of this "box," our skull, we decode binary inputs from seven major sensory sources. The data obtained is used early on to experiment with the external world in order to collaterate what the internal activity has hypothesized, then theorized as real, then established firmly as Laws about this external Universe beyond our mind.
We can not infer that anything outside is intelligent, and we can only subjective acknowledge from our own success in living in the vast external world in a satisfactory way, that WE are intelligent.
One other seemingly unavoidable observation appears to be, that the world (beyond the darkness in his box where we actually live), is orderly and patterned. In this it seems only a rational conclusion that we are equiped with a software program idea to image whatever it is that is out there, and that what is out there makes no statement concerning how it got there, only that it is imaginable in here,... or...
And God, (The Universal Force, the Macrocosmos), said, Let us, (the Natural Laws), make man (his mind as a microcosmos reflection of the Universe, in our image, after our orderly organization): and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 7 of 165 (115909)
06-16-2004 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by kofh2u
06-16-2004 10:45 PM


Re: not so intelligent myself...
kofh2u
Quote from Philip Johnson
"Intelligent design is the proposition that you need a source of intelligence in order to account for the wonders of biology. You do not see the designer directly, of course. What you see (are) the effects of design."
I want to know what the mechanism by which intelligence is able to manipulate things to account for design people such as Mr.Johnson claim is is necessary for the explanation of the "wonders of biology."

You paddle your kayak up the river from your camp to fetch your camera which you left on a rock upstream a bit. The river flows at a uniform 2 mi/hr. You paddle (on still water) at a uniform 3 mi/hr. It takes 30 minutes to reach your camera. If you paddle all the way back to your camp, how long will the return trip take?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by kofh2u, posted 06-16-2004 10:45 PM kofh2u has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 06-20-2004 6:23 PM sidelined has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 8 of 165 (116822)
06-20-2004 3:08 AM


Is anyone out there?
I am bumping this to see if there is any interest in discussing this topic further.Hopefully there will be willing parties on the ID side of things.

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 165 (116905)
06-20-2004 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by sidelined
06-16-2004 11:11 PM


Re: not so intelligent myself...
sidelined writes:
what the mechanism by which intelligence is able to manipulate things to account for design
Supernatural action, obviously, either at speeds exceeding the speed of light from a distant location or invisibly by an undetectable "hand" -- in either case the action must be taken on faith as it cannot be measured or determined regardless of the verbal deification given. This is why ID is a faith based belief, hence a religion, regardless of claims otherwise.
Heh.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by sidelined, posted 06-16-2004 11:11 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 10 of 165 (116915)
06-20-2004 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
06-20-2004 6:23 PM


Re: not so intelligent myself...
RAZD
Supernatural action, obviously, either at speeds exceeding the speed of light from a distant location or invisibly by an undetectable "hand
That is,of course the way I am assuming it to be as well. However, as I do not want to put words in the mouths of people, I will await someone who is willing to define the means by which they can establish a model that can be tested against the real world and therefore meet the criteria necessary to assert their model of Intelligent design. Of course if they bring up notions such as faster than light travel they must have some means of explaining that this is in fact the way things are and not untestable opinion thrown out to deflect sceptical examination.
Methinks I shall be waiting a good long time.
This message has been edited by sidelined, 06-20-2004 07:49 PM

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5582 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 11 of 165 (116940)
06-20-2004 10:59 PM


How is man trying to design machines, do they not use CAD programs to use intelligent computer programs to design machines before making the product, (Intelligent Design), the reason the bible is so interesting is due to prophecy, God knows the future, CAD machines don't, however, like CAD machines designing a reproducible template for a particular function, God made the DNA template (genetic blueprint)to reproduce like kind creatures (male/female made he them) within the processes of natural selection), he did not need a CAD machine, cause he knew the end from the beginning, the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy, he is the alpha and the omega, etc... kjv Rev 1:8, kjv Rev 19:10, He is the resurrection and the life, he that was dead is alive forevermore, etc...kjv Rev 1:18 Nothing that was created was created without him, etc... kjv John 1:3
P.S. The fossil record came fully formed, multitudes of complete differences within just wing design, showing a common creator knowing, cause the fossil record shows these different designs came onto the fossil record scene fully formed, fully functional, the evidence doesn't support common ancestor, but the biblical portral of the seed concept, the male and female concept (natural selection), of like kinds reproducing like kind creatures, following the natural processes written within the book of Genesis, even the word genes came through the bibles mentioning of geneologies, etc...

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by sidelined, posted 06-21-2004 12:21 AM johnfolton has replied
 Message 14 by pink sasquatch, posted 06-21-2004 12:43 AM johnfolton has replied
 Message 38 by RAZD, posted 06-21-2004 1:06 PM johnfolton has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1395 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 12 of 165 (116952)
06-20-2004 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by sidelined
06-20-2004 7:20 PM


Re: not so intelligent myself...
looks like you have a taker ...

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
{{{Buddha walks off laughing with joy}}}

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 Message 10 by sidelined, posted 06-20-2004 7:20 PM sidelined has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5898 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 13 of 165 (116965)
06-21-2004 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by johnfolton
06-20-2004 10:59 PM


whatever
God made the DNA template
Now the mechanism by which God made DNA?
This message has been edited by sidelined, 06-20-2004 11:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
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pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6013 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 14 of 165 (116976)
06-21-2004 12:43 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by johnfolton
06-20-2004 10:59 PM


whatever writes:
God made the DNA template (genetic blueprint)to reproduce like kind creatures (male/female made he them) within the processes of natural selection)
Would you please define "kind"?
How do species that reproduce asexually, or reproduce sexually but without male/female mating (male/hermaphrodite, for example), fit in?

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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5582 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 15 of 165 (117002)
06-21-2004 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by sidelined
06-21-2004 12:21 AM


Jesus is Immanuel (God with us) through him all things exists!
It says the visible and invisible, we now are peering into the invisible things, it says he created all things visible and invisible, principalities, powers, and that he is before all things, and by him and for him all things exist.
kjv Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
kjv Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
P.S. Genesis talks of the seed of the fruit trees in itself, kjv genesis 1:11. The seed is now known to be a template of genetic information, it talks of the seed of Issac kjv genesis 17:19, which would include the male and the female genetic information, its the seed thats the template, etc...it talks of the geneologies of the creatures and man, in fact the bible is full of the geneologies, before we understood what a gene was, it talks of how children from a non Jew mating a Jew(called a bastard), that the children would not be considered clean until the 10th generation (before they could marry within the congregation), something breeders of animals today feel is needed to breed out undesired genetic information, in pure breeds, etc...You also have how the woman was made from the man, so this is saying our common ancestor is Adam, and from his rib came Eve, coming forth from Adams genes, like Jesus was made of a woman, from the genes of Mary not Joesph, born out by the geneologies of Mary's line shown in the Gospel of St. Luke, compared to the geneologies of Joesph in the Gospel of St. Matthew. In fact in the epistle of Paul in Galatians 4:4 it confirms the Gospel of Luke that Jesus was made of a woman, which means with Adams rib Eve came from the man, and the seed of a woman, Jesus genes came from a woman (made a woman), its talking about some advanced cloning in the natural by the supernatural, making the geneologies through Nathan to King David as being the genetic information that was used to make the body of the Lord, though he was before the world, he being a spirit became clothed in flesh, and says in Revelations that he is of the root of David and of the bright and morning star(came from the Father went back to his Father)(true light of true light, etc...), interestingly his star moved in the sky before the wisemen coming to Worship the Lord, meaning it wasn't like Venus or anything, because it moved before the wisemen, leading them to Jesus and they worshipped him, etc... kjv St Matthew 2:9 It says in kjv St. Mark 1:1 that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. It says that he was before David, cause he is of the bright and morning star, etc...
kjv Deu 23:2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
kjv Mat 22:42 Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David.
kjv Mat 22:43 He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
kjv Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
kjv Mat 22:45 If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Jesus in Revelations makes it clear that he is of the root of David (meaning his genes came through David) and of the bright and morning star (his spirit of the bright and morning star)(God the Son)(True light of true light)(The Word), it says in the Gospel of John that he is the Word that he was before the world was, and that he became clothed in flesh, and that whosoever believeth in him gave he power to become sons of God even unto them that believe in his name, kjv St. John 1:12, which means born again of God, because it says born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God (Abba Father) kjv St. John 1:13. Jesus is the baptiser of the Spirit, it was to save that he was sent by the Father, so that whosover believeth in him should be saved and not perish, kjv John 3:16, Jesus says he has the keys of death, and as we all know everyone dies, but the word says he has the keys of death and of hell, etc...
P.S. It talks about the death of the body and of your eternal spirit, which is why he has the keys of death and of hell, so your spirit that resides within your body, at death to the believer goes up to be with the Lord(to behold his glory that was before the world was), but to the unbeliever, where will their immortal soul reside, etc...The bible says that he that was before all things holds the keys of hell, and of death, its about being an overcomer kjv Revelations 21:7, etc...

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