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Author Topic:   Prophecy re-visited
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 1 of 71 (147581)
10-05-2004 4:01 PM


Hi,
this is my first posting on EVC, though I've been browsing for months. I'd like to re-open the prophecy discussion, as I feel that previous debates on this matter got sidetracked into other areas and never reached a conclusive end.
My point is this: Christians often point to Bible prophecy, as evidence of the divinity of the Bible. I am willing to examine prophecies (not just Biblical, but of any kind), as long as they are falsifiable, i.e. can be shown to be have or have not come true. I have established certain criteria that a prophecy must meet, to classify as a valid (falsifiable, true, call it what you wish) prophecy. These are:
  1. Precedence. Prophecy must have been made before the event prophesised (obvious, but important).
  2. Probability. Prophecy predicts events that are unlikely to come true in the timeframe and circumstances prophecised. E.g, "it will rain next week", or "in the next war people will be killed", don't cut it.
  3. Specificity. Prophecy must predict specific events, rather than generalisations. In other words, .there can only be one interpretation of the prophecy. E.g "next saturday the football team in red will win the game" doesn't cut it.
  4. Timeframe. Prophecy must have specific time-limit, i.e. cannot be open-ended.
For a prophecy to be considered as fulfilled :
  1. It must be fulfilled in its entirety, e.g. if prophecised event #1 has occurred but prophecised event #2 hasn't ocurred, the prophecy isn't considered fulfilled.
  2. Independent evidence must exist, testifying to the fulfillment of the prophecy.
I consider entry criteria 1-4 and validation criteria A & B to be reasonable, in line with common sense and applicable to any kind of prophetic claim (not just biblical).
If someone doesn't agree with these criteria, then please tell me which and why you don't agree with and we'll discuss it.
If anyone agrees with these criteria, then please give me a biblical prophecy that meets them and we can talk about it.
enjoy,

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 10-05-2004 5:19 PM Legend has replied
 Message 8 by Primordial Egg, posted 10-05-2004 7:52 PM Legend has replied
 Message 20 by ramoss, posted 10-06-2004 10:55 AM Legend has replied
 Message 23 by purpledawn, posted 10-06-2004 8:48 PM Legend has replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 2 of 71 (147587)
10-05-2004 4:13 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 3 of 71 (147613)
10-05-2004 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Legend
10-05-2004 4:01 PM


My point is this: Christians often point to Bible prophecy, as evidence of the divinity of the Bible.
roflMyAssssoff.
How many more of these threads before mike dies of laughter? The day when I see one made by a christian - I'll die a happy man. But I never will because the dudeguy unbeliever always has to make rules while infact having previous knowledge of what the bible says. Therefore - the big and vast problem of unfathomable mistaken mindsets, is that one can read the bible, conclude what he thinks and then make some rules that make sure it won't pass them. Hereby convicting as guilty, all those who have previously stated that it is religious to start with a conclusion. The defense rests it's case. *blows fingernails* *whistles in glee*.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Legend, posted 10-05-2004 4:01 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Chiroptera, posted 10-05-2004 5:26 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 5 by coffee_addict, posted 10-05-2004 5:58 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 6 by MrHambre, posted 10-05-2004 7:13 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 7 by Legend, posted 10-05-2004 7:40 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 71 (147614)
10-05-2004 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
10-05-2004 5:19 PM


Hi, Mike.
Could you rewrite your post for those of us whose only language is English?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 10-05-2004 5:19 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 5 of 71 (147627)
10-05-2004 5:58 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
10-05-2004 5:19 PM


Perhaps you could come up with your own criteria for what a valid prophecy should be?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 10-05-2004 5:19 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 6 of 71 (147636)
10-05-2004 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
10-05-2004 5:19 PM


mike the wiz scoffs:
quote:
How many more of these threads before mike dies of laughter?
I'm glad someone finds it amusing. As Schraf pointed out in that other knee-slapper of a thread, Mike, you have two mutually exclusive choices:
1) The prophecy is so undeniable and persuasive that, assessed from the perspective of a non-believer, it supports the notion of a divine inspiration for Scripture and therefore forms the basis of faith in God.
2) The prophecy is not indisputable enough to convince anyone who isn't already a believer, but it makes the believers feel justified in their belief.
So which is it?
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 10-05-2004 5:19 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 7 of 71 (147642)
10-05-2004 7:40 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
10-05-2004 5:19 PM


sorry Mike, I didn't understand your post, I'm afraid you wandered into Brad McFall territory there. The criteria mentioned are not tailor-made for the Bible but apply to any kind of prediction, be it from the Bible, Quran, Book of Mormon, the guy down the street, etc.
At the end of the day, if you don't accept the criteria, can you tell me why and which ones? Alternatively, could you give me your own set of rules when you're dealing with prophecy claims from religions other than your own?
if you don't have any such rules, then will I be right in assuming that you accept anything anyone says as true prophecy !?
mike the wiz writes:
The defense rests it's case. *blows fingernails* *whistles in glee*.
friendly advice: a career as a defence lawyer would probably be a bad choice for you, given the lack of cohesion in your last post.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 10-05-2004 5:19 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 71 (147643)
10-05-2004 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Legend
10-05-2004 4:01 PM


Hi Legend,
I notice you're from Wales.
Legend writes:
next saturday the football team in red will win the game
I don't think so
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Legend, posted 10-05-2004 4:01 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Legend, posted 10-06-2004 5:48 AM Primordial Egg has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 9 of 71 (147723)
10-06-2004 5:48 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Primordial Egg
10-05-2004 7:52 PM


Legend writes:
next saturday the football team in red will win the game
Primordial Egg writes:
I don't think so
Oh, I beg to differ. We'll see on the day!
P.S if they do, does it mean I'm a prophet?!

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Primordial Egg, posted 10-05-2004 7:52 PM Primordial Egg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Primordial Egg, posted 10-06-2004 6:03 AM Legend has replied
 Message 11 by PaulK, posted 10-06-2004 6:06 AM Legend has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 71 (147724)
10-06-2004 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Legend
10-06-2004 5:48 AM


I can't really tell. I think you're only a prophet if someone believes that you are before you make the prediction. Not sure how they get there in the first place tho'
PE
PS 2-0 England.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Legend, posted 10-06-2004 5:48 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Legend, posted 10-06-2004 6:29 AM Primordial Egg has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 11 of 71 (147725)
10-06-2004 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Legend
10-06-2004 5:48 AM


Well a Welsh victory fits your criteria which is one of the reasons I like to add one more.
There are some things that a "prophet" is likely to predict even if they do not seem likely. Whether it is wishful thinking, to encourage others or based on previous prophecies.
While we can't rule out a prophecy on that ground alone a prophecy would have to do very well on other criteria to be considered good evidence of the supernatural. For instance, if you could predict who scores and when - to the nearest minute, I would be impressed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Legend, posted 10-06-2004 5:48 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Legend, posted 10-06-2004 7:00 AM PaulK has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 12 of 71 (147726)
10-06-2004 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Primordial Egg
10-06-2004 6:03 AM


Primordial Egg writes:
I think you're only a prophet if someone believes that you are before you make the prediction. Not sure how they get there in the first place tho
That's exactly what I'm trying to establish. How do we accept / reject a prediction as a prophecy. Surely, even Christians must have some standards, as they readily dismiss prophecies made by other religions?!
P.S 2-1 for Wales, Earnshaw scoring in the last minute!

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Primordial Egg, posted 10-06-2004 6:03 AM Primordial Egg has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by PaulK, posted 10-06-2004 6:42 AM Legend has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 13 of 71 (147727)
10-06-2004 6:42 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Legend
10-06-2004 6:29 AM


I think you will find that most Christians do not have a consistent rule for identifying valid prophecies that they apply to Biblical and non-Biblical prophecies. They don't think like you or I.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Legend, posted 10-06-2004 6:29 AM Legend has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 14 of 71 (147728)
10-06-2004 7:00 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by PaulK
10-06-2004 6:06 AM


PaulK writes:
There are some things that a "prophet" is likely to predict even if they do not seem likely.
that's where the Probability criterion comes into place.
PaulK writes:
While we can't rule out a prophecy on that ground alone a prophecy would have to do very well on other criteria to be considered good evidence of the supernatural
that's why a prophecy must meet all criteria specified in the opening post to qualify.
PaulK writes:
. For instance, if you could predict who scores and when - to the nearest minute, I would be impressed.
So, I presume you agree with the Specificity criterion. As my sample 'prophecy' stands, it will come true as long as any team in red, anywhere in the world, wins a footbal game on Saturday. By narrowing it down to players and goals scored, we effectively apply the Specificity criterion and avoid multiple interpretations.
The whole point of this thread is to see if people agree with what a prophecy should be, if not, then they should define what a prophecy should be, if yes, then they can give me a Bible prophecy that meets the standards.
enjoy

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by PaulK, posted 10-06-2004 6:06 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 10-06-2004 7:11 AM Legend has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 15 of 71 (147730)
10-06-2004 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Legend
10-06-2004 7:00 AM


The specificity criterion also largely breaks down to probability.
The only other important aspect of specificty is the ability to identify failure as well as success.
But what I am saying is that if we can reasonably expect the prophet to "predict" something without any real advance knowledge (like a Wales supporter predicting that Wales will beat England) then we have to be stricter on the other criteria.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Legend, posted 10-06-2004 7:00 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Legend, posted 10-06-2004 8:19 AM PaulK has replied

  
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