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Author | Topic: Prophecy re-visited | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Legend Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Hi,
this is my first posting on EVC, though I've been browsing for months. I'd like to re-open the prophecy discussion, as I feel that previous debates on this matter got sidetracked into other areas and never reached a conclusive end. My point is this: Christians often point to Bible prophecy, as evidence of the divinity of the Bible. I am willing to examine prophecies (not just Biblical, but of any kind), as long as they are falsifiable, i.e. can be shown to be have or have not come true. I have established certain criteria that a prophecy must meet, to classify as a valid (falsifiable, true, call it what you wish) prophecy. These are:
If someone doesn't agree with these criteria, then please tell me which and why you don't agree with and we'll discuss it. If anyone agrees with these criteria, then please give me a biblical prophecy that meets them and we can talk about it. enjoy, "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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mike the wiz Member Posts: 4752 From: u.k Joined: |
My point is this: Christians often point to Bible prophecy, as evidence of the divinity of the Bible. roflMyAssssoff. How many more of these threads before mike dies of laughter? The day when I see one made by a christian - I'll die a happy man. But I never will because the dudeguy unbeliever always has to make rules while infact having previous knowledge of what the bible says. Therefore - the big and vast problem of unfathomable mistaken mindsets, is that one can read the bible, conclude what he thinks and then make some rules that make sure it won't pass them. Hereby convicting as guilty, all those who have previously stated that it is religious to start with a conclusion. The defense rests it's case. *blows fingernails* *whistles in glee*.
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Chiroptera Inactive Member |
Hi, Mike.
Could you rewrite your post for those of us whose only language is English?
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coffee_addict Member (Idle past 477 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: |
Perhaps you could come up with your own criteria for what a valid prophecy should be?
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MrHambre Member (Idle past 1393 days) Posts: 1495 From: Framingham, MA, USA Joined: |
mike the wiz scoffs:
quote:I'm glad someone finds it amusing. As Schraf pointed out in that other knee-slapper of a thread, Mike, you have two mutually exclusive choices: 1) The prophecy is so undeniable and persuasive that, assessed from the perspective of a non-believer, it supports the notion of a divine inspiration for Scripture and therefore forms the basis of faith in God. 2) The prophecy is not indisputable enough to convince anyone who isn't already a believer, but it makes the believers feel justified in their belief. So which is it? regards,Esteban Hambre
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Legend Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
sorry Mike, I didn't understand your post, I'm afraid you wandered into Brad McFall territory there. The criteria mentioned are not tailor-made for the Bible but apply to any kind of prediction, be it from the Bible, Quran, Book of Mormon, the guy down the street, etc.
At the end of the day, if you don't accept the criteria, can you tell me why and which ones? Alternatively, could you give me your own set of rules when you're dealing with prophecy claims from religions other than your own? if you don't have any such rules, then will I be right in assuming that you accept anything anyone says as true prophecy !?
mike the wiz writes:
friendly advice: a career as a defence lawyer would probably be a bad choice for you, given the lack of cohesion in your last post. The defense rests it's case. *blows fingernails* *whistles in glee*. "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Primordial Egg Inactive Member |
Hi Legend,
I notice you're from Wales.
Legend writes: next saturday the football team in red will win the game I don't think so PE
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Legend Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Legend writes: next saturday the football team in red will win the game Primordial Egg writes: I don't think so Oh, I beg to differ. We'll see on the day! P.S if they do, does it mean I'm a prophet?! "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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Primordial Egg Inactive Member |
I can't really tell. I think you're only a prophet if someone believes that you are before you make the prediction. Not sure how they get there in the first place tho'
PE PS 2-0 England.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
Well a Welsh victory fits your criteria which is one of the reasons I like to add one more.
There are some things that a "prophet" is likely to predict even if they do not seem likely. Whether it is wishful thinking, to encourage others or based on previous prophecies. While we can't rule out a prophecy on that ground alone a prophecy would have to do very well on other criteria to be considered good evidence of the supernatural. For instance, if you could predict who scores and when - to the nearest minute, I would be impressed.
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Legend Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
Primordial Egg writes: I think you're only a prophet if someone believes that you are before you make the prediction. Not sure how they get there in the first place tho That's exactly what I'm trying to establish. How do we accept / reject a prediction as a prophecy. Surely, even Christians must have some standards, as they readily dismiss prophecies made by other religions?! P.S 2-1 for Wales, Earnshaw scoring in the last minute! "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
I think you will find that most Christians do not have a consistent rule for identifying valid prophecies that they apply to Biblical and non-Biblical prophecies. They don't think like you or I.
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Legend Member (Idle past 5006 days) Posts: 1226 From: Wales, UK Joined: |
PaulK writes: There are some things that a "prophet" is likely to predict even if they do not seem likely. that's where the Probability criterion comes into place.
PaulK writes: While we can't rule out a prophecy on that ground alone a prophecy would have to do very well on other criteria to be considered good evidence of the supernatural that's why a prophecy must meet all criteria specified in the opening post to qualify.
PaulK writes: . For instance, if you could predict who scores and when - to the nearest minute, I would be impressed. So, I presume you agree with the Specificity criterion. As my sample 'prophecy' stands, it will come true as long as any team in red, anywhere in the world, wins a footbal game on Saturday. By narrowing it down to players and goals scored, we effectively apply the Specificity criterion and avoid multiple interpretations. The whole point of this thread is to see if people agree with what a prophecy should be, if not, then they should define what a prophecy should be, if yes, then they can give me a Bible prophecy that meets the standards. enjoy "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."
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PaulK Member Posts: 17822 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
The specificity criterion also largely breaks down to probability.
The only other important aspect of specificty is the ability to identify failure as well as success. But what I am saying is that if we can reasonably expect the prophet to "predict" something without any real advance knowledge (like a Wales supporter predicting that Wales will beat England) then we have to be stricter on the other criteria.
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