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Author
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Topic: Does god have free will?
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 499 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 1 of 128 (147087)
10-03-2004 11:29 PM
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General Nazort writes: God's nature does not change. One of the many recurring theme I've seen about god is that god is forever unchanging. Another way you could put it is that god is limited to what it has done before and what it can do according to the bible. It is predictable. This really sounds to me like god has no free will. Free will is something that us humans say we all have, that it is the thing that, some christians say, the thing that ultimately will determine who goes to hell and who goes to heaven. So, does god has free will or not?
GN writes: The answer is that God is the supreme Good. He does not create what Good (for then he might change his mind about what is Good) and he does not command what is already Good (for them Good would be greater than God). Instead, Good comes from God's very nature, and he commands the moral law to be Good because he cannot contradict his own nature.
If good comes from god's very nature and god is forever unchanging because it cannot contradict its own nature, then it really really sounds to me like god has no free will. This message has been edited by GAW-Snow, 09-02-2005 11:14 AM
My favorite quotes of the week. I'd sooner let John Couey, C-O-U-E-Y, who raped and buried alive little Jessica, I'd sooner let him adopt kids, than turn them over to the fags and dykes! That clear enough for ya? --Fred Phelps Yeah, I used to question but I strive to be wise, a questioning philosopher isn't wise, a hard laborer that perhaps lacks education and only has a few simplistic beliefs but does not question those beliefs is wise. -- Guess who
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AdminNosy
Administrator Posts: 4754 From: Vancouver, BC, Canada Joined: 11-11-2003
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Message 2 of 128 (147107)
10-04-2004 2:41 AM
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Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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i believe that our perspective of god is fundamentally limited by the bible. the bible says this, or the bible says that. the bible is a human document, not a deity. moreover, the bible depicts god as changing alot. but this is likely just our views of god changing throughout history. does god have free will? i would answer yes. the part that worries him in genesis 3 is that human now have the power to excercise free will, by knowing good and evil. he says that this makes humans like gods. so it would stand to reason that free will is one of the deciding factors in deity. is god unchanging? i'm not sure.
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 499 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Thanx for answering. If I was a christian, I would believe that god has free will, too. However, if you take the fundie point of view, it would appear that god has no free will and exists within this box that the fundies have created.
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 5 by Tusko, posted 10-04-2004 8:31 AM | | coffee_addict has not replied | | | Message 8 by arachnophilia, posted 10-05-2004 12:40 AM | | coffee_addict has not replied |
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Tusko
Member (Idle past 123 days) Posts: 615 From: London, UK Joined: 10-01-2004
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God Chucks A Sickie
I really like the idea that God doesn't have any room for free will. If he is constrained by the goodness of his own nature, then what's he supposed to do if he wants to take a day off, kick back and have some fun? I guess that people might try to get out of it by talking about His very special nature. He is in the unique position of being perfect, they might say, and so special rules might apply because of this. I'd be interested to see someone rehearse this argument actually, because I'm not sure how it would go.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by coffee_addict, posted 10-04-2004 4:34 AM | | coffee_addict has not replied |
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 499 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Message 6 of 128 (147357)
10-05-2004 12:13 AM
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Bump
This thread is meant to allow GN and other fundies to show me how god can be good, unchangeble, and have free will at the same time. Your chance to make me look like a dumbarse.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 7 of 128 (147364)
10-05-2004 12:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Tusko
10-04-2004 8:31 AM
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Re: God Chucks A Sickie
then what's he supposed to do if he wants to take a day off, kick back and have some fun? create saturday.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Tusko, posted 10-04-2004 8:31 AM | | Tusko has not replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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However, if you take the fundie point of view, it would appear that god has no free will and exists within this box that the fundies have created. this is one of my major problems with fundamentalism. god is only who they say he is. who are they to define god?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by coffee_addict, posted 10-04-2004 4:34 AM | | coffee_addict has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 9 by asciikerr, posted 10-05-2004 1:09 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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asciikerr
Inactive Member
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We don't Define God..
quote:
this is one of my major problems with fundamentalism. god is only who they say he is. who are they to define god?
We can be assured that God does not go against His own Nature! Just like He won't break His promises. "even if He wanted?" Yes, even if He wanted...He sticks to His Nature & Character. I'll see if I can scare of some scripture on this. Old Testament is a good place to start. I'm not saying that God doesn't have FREE WILL, but His Free Will is Holy & Moral. Not a Free will of SIN...breaking Promises, doing evil etc., Hope that helps... "...in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began..."(Titus 1:2) This message has been edited by asciikerr, 10-05-2004 12:33 AM
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1365 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 10 of 128 (147386)
10-05-2004 2:15 AM
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Reply to: Message 9 by asciikerr
10-05-2004 1:09 AM
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Re: We don't Define God..
wow, you registered to reply to me. perhaps you should look at a few of my past conversations. i consistantly confront fundamentalist christians on their views of god. this thread is a good start: http:// EvC Forum: Why I am creationist --> EvC Forum: Why I am creationist
"...in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began..."(Titus 1:2) see this thread: http:// EvC Forum: Can God lie? --> EvC Forum: Can God lie?
quote:
1 Kings 22:22-23 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
also, see genesis 2-3, where god tells adam and even that if they eat of the tree of knowledge, they'll die that same day. but it's rather off topic here, take it to the other thread. but my point is that this is a christian definition of god. fundamentalists, in my experience, rob god of any majesty, beauty, and greatness. god is this, god does this, god talks like this. as a fellow christian, i hope this statement truly inspires you to keep searching your faith: god is so much more than you or i or anyone could imagine.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 9 by asciikerr, posted 10-05-2004 1:09 AM | | asciikerr has not replied |
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General Nazort
Inactive Member
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If good comes from god's very nature and god is forever unchanging because it cannot contradict its own nature, then it really really sounds to me like god has no free will. I guess you could say that God has free will within the constraints of his nature (goodness, justice, etc).
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 499 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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Um... that's not free will at all. It's like saying you have free will to choose whatever foreign language class you want as long as you only take French. By the way, that's exactly what my parents said to me. Someone shoot me in the head! Either GN doesn't know what's going on or he's making stuff up as he goes along.
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General Nazort
Inactive Member
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Lam, How would you define free will? Do you believe humans have free will?
If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 499 days) Posts: 3645 From: Indianapolis, IN Joined: 03-29-2004
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GN writes: How would you define free will?
I use Kant's definition of free will, which is the ability to resist natural temptation. This is something that god seems to lack in the old testiment.
Do you believe humans have free will?
Well, there have been cases where people willingly starved to the point of near death or even death. I'd call that free will. Since your god is all good and can only do things that are currently defined as good, I must conclude that it has no free will because it is incapable of acting against its nature.
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asciikerr
Inactive Member
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Picture This...
God is THEE Just KING of Kings, and Lord of Lords. A JUST KING would NEVER violate his own decrees or laws set forth, an unjustice king wouldn't care. God will NOT violate any of His own Laws or Commandments, Jesus Christ having lived a Sinless life is proof of that. So God does have a Free Will, and He "Chooses" to excercise it in a Holy and Righteous way. In your logic, God would have to violate His own Character to show He has Free Will. That is like saying a person who "CHOOSES" to be drug-free person has no free-will because he chose not to violate his morals, ethics or body by accepting a poison into his own body. Your running in circles and your argument is weak! "Um, what if the Drug-Free person really wanted too!?" That is why He "MUST" & will punish Sinner's, that is why there is a Hell, because it would be "unjust" and against His righteous and divine nature if they went unpunished for the sins they have committed. So just like any righteous KING, He chooses not to violate His own Decrees set forth. That is why Christians can stake their lives on God, He keeps His promises to Israel and those whom trust Him. We have been promised that He will never forsake us, and so we can bank on it. That is why we rejoice, why we have strength in Him, because He is not a man that He should Lie. He is God Almighty, Holy-Holy-Holy & Righteous! Hope that helps...Cheers! This message has been edited by asciikerr, 10-05-2004 03:10 AM
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