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Author Topic:   Multiculturalism
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 1234 (737494)
09-26-2014 2:09 AM


Multiculturalism
We live in a diverse world. We are more aware now of this diversity than we have ever been in the past. In particular, we notice the great differences between Western cultures and those of non-Western immigrants.
Historic responses to unfamiliar cultures have not always been positive. We can find descriptions in all the world's literature about the disliked 'Other'. Our history is filled with backlash and fight against people perceived to be noticeably different.
In the modern era, however, attitudes have changed. It is now considered proper and politically correct to not only accept other cultures but to actively involve oneself in learning about them; to enjoy and even seek after cultural diversity.
quote:
Wikipedia on Criticisms of Multiculturalism:
Journalist Ed West argued in his 2013 book, The Diversity Illusion, that ... :
Everyone in a position of power held the same opinion. Diversity was a good in itself, so making Britain truly diverse would enrich it and bring ‘significant cultural contributions’, reflecting a widespread belief among the ruling classes that multiculturalism and cultural, racial and religious diversity were morally positive things whatever the consequences. This is the unthinking assumption held by almost the entire political, media and education establishment. It is the diversity illusion.

We live in a world where diversity is respected and even celebrated; where the Otheras defined against the Westis hailed as fresh and inviting; in a world of Multiculturalism:
quote:
Wikipedia on Multiculturalism:
Multiculturalism is the cultural diversity of communities within a given society and the policies that promote this diversity. As a descriptive term, multiculturalism is the simple fact of cultural diversity and the demographic make-up of a specific place, sometimes at the organizational level, e.g., schools, businesses, neighborhoods, cities, or nations. As a prescriptive term, multiculturalism encourages ideologies and policies that promote this diversity or its institutionalization. In this sense, multiculturalism is a society "at ease with the rich tapestry of human life and the desire amongst people to express their own identity in the manner they see fit."
Multicultural ideologies or policies vary widely, ranging from the advocacy of equal respect to the various cultures in a society, to a policy of promoting the maintenance of cultural diversity, to policies in which people of various ethnic and religious groups are addressed by the authorities as defined by the group they belong to.
But this world is not all the roses the popular media would have us believe. It is, in fact, a world of lower standards, greater mistrust, less community, and self-hate:
quote:
Wikipedia on Criticisms of Multiculturalism:
The liberal-feminist critique is related to the liberal and libertarian critique, since it is concerned with what happens inside the cultural groups. In her 1999 essay, later expanded into an anthology, "Is Multiculturalism Bad for Women?" the feminist and political theorist Susan Okin argues that a concern for the preservation of cultural diversity should not overshadow the discriminatory nature of gender roles in many traditional minority cultures, that, at the very least, "culture" should not be used as an excuse for rolling back the women's rights movement.
quote:
"The Downside of Diversity" from boston.com:
Harvard political scientist Robert Putnam -- famous for "Bowling Alone," his 2000 book on declining civic engagement -- has found that the greater the diversity in a community, the fewer people vote and the less they volunteer, the less they give to charity and work on community projects. In the most diverse communities, neighbors trust one another about half as much as they do in the most homogenous settings. The study, the largest ever on civic engagement in America, found that virtually all measures of civic health are lower in more diverse settings.
...
"It would be unfortunate if a politically correct progressivism were to deny the reality of the challenge to social solidarity posed by diversity," he writes in the new report. "It would be equally unfortunate if an ahistorical and ethnocentric conservatism were to deny that addressing that challenge is both feasible and desirable."
More and more different cultures are being piled atop one another. The world is facing a challenge on how to accommodate this realty. One approach has been "multiculturalism", but has this really worked?
What alternatives are there to handle the ever-growing reality that "We" are not alone?
Jon
Edited by Jon, : subtitle
Edited by Jon, : clarity

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2014 2:30 AM Jon has replied
 Message 20 by Modulous, posted 09-26-2014 2:58 PM Jon has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 2 of 1234 (737495)
09-26-2014 2:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon
09-26-2014 2:09 AM


Re: Multiculturalism
There's only 3 ways that a country can handle what is, in effect, the globalisation of people:
1. Separatism and Apartheid
2. Melting Pot
3. Multiculturalism
1 is immoral, offensive and inevitably results in violence
2 has been found to not work, by and large, people 'melt' with people like themselves
Which leaves us with accepting the many different cultures that live in our communitities and finding ways of accommodating difference - but to do it without compromising the laws of the original country (so long as those laws are democratic and legitimate.)

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jon, posted 09-26-2014 2:09 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by vimesey, posted 09-26-2014 8:36 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 09-26-2014 9:23 AM Tangle has replied
 Message 21 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-26-2014 3:45 PM Tangle has replied

  
vimesey
Member
Posts: 1398
From: Birmingham, England
Joined: 09-21-2011


(1)
Message 3 of 1234 (737497)
09-26-2014 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Tangle
09-26-2014 2:30 AM


Re: Multiculturalism
Hi Tangle,
I would agree that multiculturalism, as you've outlined it, is preferable to the alternatives you paint, and absolutely key to its success is your proviso that the laws of the integrating society are not compromised. (This is perhaps where multiculturalism has acquired bad press recently - a failure to ensure that your proviso is sufficiently emphasised).
But I think we need to dig more deeply. Not all western values are enshrined in law - should we determine that certain of those values are sufficiently important, that we should introduce new laws which emphasise them over the practices of incoming cultures ? Take France's recently introduced laws, banning the wearing of full Muslim veils (the niqab and others) in public.
We should also ask ourselves if we are too careful about challenging behaviours when they violate our laws or values. See the recent report into abuse (a mild term) in Rochdale, or the scandalous lack of attention given to allegations of systematic rape in the London Somali community.
I am not convinced that we have ever been sufficiently clear in the UK as to the standards we expect our citizens to meet. These standards should, of course, never oppress a cultural practice which hurts no one. But we shouldn't be scared to protect values which are important and hard won.

Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2014 2:30 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2014 1:05 PM vimesey has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 1234 (737498)
09-26-2014 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Tangle
09-26-2014 2:30 AM


Re: Multiculturalism
2. Melting Pot
...
2 has been found to not work, by and large, people 'melt' with people like themselves
And that's bad because...?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2014 2:30 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by GDR, posted 09-26-2014 11:02 AM Jon has replied
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2014 12:57 PM Jon has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 5 of 1234 (737506)
09-26-2014 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
09-26-2014 9:23 AM


Re: Multiculturalism
Tangle writes:
2. Melting Pot
...
2 has been found to not work, by and large, people 'melt' with people like themselves
Jon writes:
And that's bad because...?
I don't see Tangle suggesting that it was bad but that it was just the reality. I would question though whether or not he was correct. It seems to me more that the melting pot just takes longer.
Certainly when people move to a new country they are most likely to move to a community that more closely represents their homeland. It is human nature. We are tribal and of course there are linguistic issues as well.
However as time goes by and you get to the second and third generations and beyond, IMHO it does become more of a melting pot as people's customs become more blended.
A lived in the Toronto area for a number of years and our street was a complete melting pot where people born in Canada were a minority. There were Brits, French and English Canadian, Chinese from both Hong Kong and the rest of China, Serbians, a Croatian, East Indian are the ones I can remember off the top of my head.
I'm not convinced that given enough exposure to each other we can't have a society that will focus more on what brings us together than what separates us.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 09-26-2014 9:23 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 09-26-2014 12:15 PM GDR has not replied
 Message 8 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2014 1:04 PM GDR has replied
 Message 11 by Jon, posted 09-26-2014 1:30 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 6 of 1234 (737515)
09-26-2014 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by GDR
09-26-2014 11:02 AM


Re: Multiculturalism
GDR writes:
However as time goes by and you get to the second and third generations and beyond, IMHO it does become more of a melting pot as people's customs become more blended.
Once upon a time, a girl I worked with made a slightly racist remark. I said to her, "You have brown eyes. You're not white."
A lot of people in the Ku Klux Klan have brown eyes. I'm "whiter" than they are. I suspect that some day the Klan will include black people who hate whomever the enemy of the moment is.
Edited by ringo, : Changed 'whoever' to 'whomever'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by GDR, posted 09-26-2014 11:02 AM GDR has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 7 of 1234 (737520)
09-26-2014 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Jon
09-26-2014 9:23 AM


Re: Multiculturalism
Jon writes:
And that's bad because...?
Who said it was bad?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Jon, posted 09-26-2014 9:23 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Jon, posted 09-26-2014 1:32 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 8 of 1234 (737521)
09-26-2014 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by GDR
09-26-2014 11:02 AM


Re: Multiculturalism
GDR writes:
Certainly when people move to a new country they are most likely to move to a community that more closely represents their homeland. It is human nature. We are tribal and of course there are linguistic issues as well.
However as time goes by and you get to the second and third generations and beyond, IMHO it does become more of a melting pot as people's customs become more blended.
There's actually very little of that happening even after several generations - except between already like cultures. Also, immigrants come in waves, each generation has has its new immigrants. The melting pot idea may happen eventually but we're talking hundreds of generations, not a handful.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by GDR, posted 09-26-2014 11:02 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by GDR, posted 09-26-2014 1:25 PM Tangle has not replied
 Message 14 by Jon, posted 09-26-2014 1:49 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 9 of 1234 (737522)
09-26-2014 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by vimesey
09-26-2014 8:36 AM


Re: Multiculturalism
Agreed.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by vimesey, posted 09-26-2014 8:36 AM vimesey has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 10 of 1234 (737523)
09-26-2014 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tangle
09-26-2014 1:04 PM


Re: Multiculturalism
Tangle writes:
There's actually very little of that happening even after several generations - except between already like cultures. Also, immigrants come in waves, each generation has has its new immigrants. The melting pot idea may happen eventually but we're talking hundreds of generations, not a handful.
You may be right although the experience that I had in Toronto was more positive. I also think that in Canada, other than for our native population, we are a country of immigrants, so possibly we are more of a melting pot than you are in the UK.
Possibly the size of any specific immigrant population might have an impact. The larger the group the less need to integrate with the majority group. I experienced that myself as an anglophone living on the west island of Montreal where English was the predominant language, as opposed to majority French language and culture in all of Montreal. The English speaking population in my area made it easy for me to live without being absorbed into the French language and culture, which of course in the long run was my loss.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2014 1:04 PM Tangle has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 1234 (737524)
09-26-2014 1:30 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by GDR
09-26-2014 11:02 AM


Re: Multiculturalism
There's more than one issue on the table here. Multiculturalism, as the policy of promoting cultural diversity and cultural diversity awareness, is attacked on at least two grounds in the OP:
  1. It runs the risk of respecting cultural differences over and at the expense of individual liberties, and
  2. It creates communities that are more divisive, not lessit decreases "social capital"
We cannot escape the reality that highly diverse cultures are coming into contact with one another at an increasing rate. We must come up with ways to meet this reality that benefit us as individuals, as societies, as nations, and as a species.
Is Multiculturalism the answer to this challenge?
Or is there a better way?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by GDR, posted 09-26-2014 11:02 AM GDR has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 09-26-2014 1:32 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 1234 (737525)
09-26-2014 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Tangle
09-26-2014 12:57 PM


Re: Multiculturalism
You seemed to discount it as a possible alternative to Multiculturalism.
Why is that?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2014 12:57 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2014 2:05 PM Jon has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 13 of 1234 (737526)
09-26-2014 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Jon
09-26-2014 1:30 PM


Re: Multiculturalism
Jon writes:
Is Multiculturalism the answer to this challenge?
There is no "the answer". We need multi-answers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Jon, posted 09-26-2014 1:30 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Jon, posted 09-26-2014 1:50 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 1234 (737527)
09-26-2014 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Tangle
09-26-2014 1:04 PM


Re: Multiculturalism
The melting pot idea may happen eventually but we're talking hundreds of generations, not a handful.
But it will never happen in a political and academic setting that promotes Multiculturalism: that seeks to recognize, celebrate, and promote cultural diversity.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2014 1:04 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Tangle, posted 09-26-2014 2:24 PM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 1234 (737528)
09-26-2014 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by ringo
09-26-2014 1:32 PM


Re: Multiculturalism
Do you see Multiculturalism being an answer, then?
If so, where is it applicable? Where has it been applied? What have been the results?
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by ringo, posted 09-26-2014 1:32 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 09-27-2014 11:43 AM Jon has not replied

  
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