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Author Topic:   The Demise of High Tech
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 1 of 27 (782123)
04-17-2016 10:18 AM


I worked in high tech all my life until retirement a couple years ago, but disillusionedly the last 6 years. The 2008 financial meltdown changed high tech forever. The details differed for every high tech company, but the general story was always the same with benefits and perks diminishing or disappearing altogether. Salaries stagnated or declined, stock options were reduced or discontinued, jobs disappeared. For every spectacular success like Google there were a hundred struggling or dying companies. For most people in high tech the wild and exhilarating ride was over.
There are probably not many who remember "Ma Bell" (AT&T). Maybe some remember "Mother DEC," Digital Equipment Corporation, for years #2 to IBM's #1. Lifetime employment at industry stalwarts like these was at one time guaranteed, but the decline of high tech as a reliable and beneficent employer began in the 1990s, and the demise in 2008. The Googles and Facebooks and Twitters and Squares, the current success stories, are nothing like the old time high tech.
I didn't like witnessing the death as I knew it of my beloved industry. I fought the loss of stock benefits, private offices, Keurigs and friends as my fellow co-workers, those who remained with me, looked on knowingly and bemusedly, as if they understood the inevitability that I couldn't accept.
Last Sunday's New York Times published an opinion piece, Congratulations! You’ve Been Fired, that described what high tech has become. Here are the best quotes:
quote:
I am old enough to remember the 1980s and early ’90s, when technology executives were obsessed with retaining talent. Our most important asset walks out the door every night, was the clich of the day. No longer.
Treating workers as if they are widgets to be used up and discarded is a central part of the revised relationship between employers and employees...The model originated in Silicon Valley, but it’s spreading... this new way of working is actually the oldest game in the world: the exploitation of labor by capital.
...
I joined the company [Hubspot] in 2013 after spending 25 years in journalism and getting laid off from a top position at Newsweek. I thought working at a start-up would be great. The perks! The cool offices!
It turned out I’d joined a digital sweatshop, where people were packed into huge rooms, side by side, at long tables.
...
Tech workers have no job security...Companies burn you out and churn you out when someone better, or cheaper, becomes available.
...
In this new model of work, employees are expected to feel complete devotion and loyalty to their companies, even while the boss feels no such obligation in return.
...
The free snacks are nice, but you also must tolerate having your head stuffed with silly jargon and ideology about being on a mission to change the world. Companies sell shares to the public while still losing money. Wealth is generated, but most of the loot goes to a handful of people at the top, the founders and venture capital investors.
I miss high tech.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2016 1:59 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 3 by ringo, posted 04-17-2016 2:20 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 27 (782125)
04-17-2016 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
04-17-2016 10:18 AM


I miss high tech
I feel your pain. The story you tell regarding high tech is very similar to the story people in many other sectors could tell you, with the main difference being that their dates of decline may be a bit earlier. I don't think any industry can claim lifetime employment as a normal expectation, and the 1990s sounds like a good date for lost of those expectations for many folks.
quote:
In this new model of work, employees are expected to feel complete devotion and loyalty to their companies, even while the boss feels no such obligation in return
Word.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 04-17-2016 10:18 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(3)
Message 3 of 27 (782128)
04-17-2016 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
04-17-2016 10:18 AM


I'm still lamenting the demise of the Zeppelin industry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 04-17-2016 10:18 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by NoNukes, posted 04-17-2016 2:26 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 04-18-2016 7:41 AM ringo has replied
 Message 10 by 1.61803, posted 04-19-2016 4:07 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 27 (782130)
04-17-2016 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ringo
04-17-2016 2:20 PM


...demise of the Zeppelin industry
That's pretty cold, ringo. Appropriate, but cold.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ringo, posted 04-17-2016 2:20 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(1)
Message 5 of 27 (782132)
04-18-2016 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by ringo
04-17-2016 2:20 PM


ringo writes:
I'm still lamenting the demise of the Zeppelin industry.
My message was only partly about the inevitability of change and accompanying loss. The broader message is the newly acquired dominance finance has achieved over skilled labor. High tech is just one sphere, the one I'm familiar with, but we've seen it happening in all spheres where traditionally highly skilled labor has had sufficient leverage for good salaries, a positive work environment, and employment stability. Now many highly skilled categories no longer provide these benefits because even highly skilled workers have become commodities. It isn't just software engineers who have suffered this erosion of power but engineers of all types, doctors, lawyers, biotech workers, etc.
The upper echelons of employment have always been treated best, but the history of our country, and yours, too, is that this standard has gradually propagated down over time. That trend has stopped and gone in reverse.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ringo, posted 04-17-2016 2:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 04-18-2016 11:41 AM Percy has replied
 Message 7 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2016 1:09 PM Percy has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 402 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 6 of 27 (782135)
04-18-2016 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
04-18-2016 7:41 AM


Percy writes:
The broader message is the newly acquired dominance finance has achieved over skilled labor.
Welcome to the club. Semi-skilled and "unskilled" labour has always been in that position. Maybe some day people will learn that all labour has to stick together instead of the "upper echelons" basking in privilege.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 04-18-2016 7:41 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 04-18-2016 6:44 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 27 (782144)
04-18-2016 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Percy
04-18-2016 7:41 AM


It isn't just software engineers who have suffered this erosion of power but engineers of all types, doctors, lawyers, biotech workers, etc.
That's true. And middle of those folks, but not all of course, did not have much sympathy when it was manufacturing folks who were the technically skilled folks losing their jobs.
but the history of our country, and yours, too, is that this standard has gradually propagated down over time.
I'd suggest that the propagation downward of benefits was largely driven by the ability of workers to force such sharing through various leveraging vehicles and not because 'trickle down' economics was ever anything more than BS. These days, pretty much the only labor with any kind of bargaining power that does not draw the ire of at least one political party are ball players and actors.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Percy, posted 04-18-2016 7:41 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Percy, posted 04-18-2016 6:49 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


(2)
Message 8 of 27 (782161)
04-18-2016 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by ringo
04-18-2016 11:41 AM


ringo writes:
Welcome to the club. Semi-skilled and "unskilled" labour has always been in that position. Maybe some day people will learn that all labour has to stick together instead of the "upper echelons" basking in privilege.
It's expected that greater skill levels will bring greater bargaining power. About labor sticking together, even strong labor can be thwarted by the ability of the rich and powerful to garner favorable laws and treatment from government. During the 20th century when labor made such great strides there were powerful socialistic influences, but they have gradually withered. Unions today are moribund, worn down by decades of favorable treatment of finance and business. I think all skill levels of labor have suffered in terms of wages and job security over the past two or three decades.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ringo, posted 04-18-2016 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by caffeine, posted 04-19-2016 4:20 PM Percy has replied
 Message 13 by NoNukes, posted 04-20-2016 10:54 AM Percy has replied
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 04-24-2016 2:19 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 9 of 27 (782162)
04-18-2016 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by NoNukes
04-18-2016 1:09 PM


NoNukes writes:
but the history of our country, and yours, too, is that this standard has gradually propagated down over time.
I'd suggest that the propagation downward of benefits was largely driven by the ability of workers to force such sharing through various leveraging vehicles and not because 'trickle down' economics was ever anything more than BS.
Yes - my choice of words wasn't intended as a claim of trickle down economics.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by NoNukes, posted 04-18-2016 1:09 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1494 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 10 of 27 (782178)
04-19-2016 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ringo
04-17-2016 2:20 PM


Zeppelins schmepplins, the cathode ray tube industry was once the cats meow!

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ringo, posted 04-17-2016 2:20 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ringo, posted 04-24-2016 2:22 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1015 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 11 of 27 (782180)
04-19-2016 4:20 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Percy
04-18-2016 6:44 PM


It's expected that greater skill levels will bring greater bargaining power. About labor sticking together, even strong labor can be thwarted by the ability of the rich and powerful to garner favorable laws and treatment from government. During the 20th century when labor made such great strides there were powerful socialistic influences, but they have gradually withered. Unions today are moribund, worn down by decades of favorable treatment of finance and business. I think all skill levels of labor have suffered in terms of wages and job security over the past two or three decades.
I work in an industry which provides certain benefits offered by companies for their highly-skilled workers, and I am baffled by your view of events. Our clients are primarily in the technology, oil and medical/pharmaceutical industries, and they spend fortunes on their lucrative wage and benefit packages for their high-skilled workers. With regards to the tech industry in particular, they import them to Seattle and north California from all over the world and offer new hires recently graduated from university salaries ten to fifteen times the size of mine.
People with skills genuinely in demand by industry will never have to fear about job security and perks unless industry changes so that those skills are no longer so valuable, or unless those skills become common enough that they decrease in value.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 04-18-2016 6:44 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Percy, posted 04-20-2016 7:42 AM caffeine has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 12 of 27 (782191)
04-20-2016 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by caffeine
04-19-2016 4:20 PM


caffeine writes:
I work in an industry which provides certain benefits offered by companies for their highly-skilled workers, and I am baffled by your view of events.
You mean my very brief summary of the rise and fall of labor during the 20th century? I think it's factual.
Or if you mean my view of what's happened to high tech over the past 20 years, I lived it, other people lived it, too, including the author of the Times piece I quoted from.
With regards to the tech industry in particular, they import them to Seattle and north California from all over the world and offer new hires recently graduated from university salaries ten to fifteen times the size of mine.
Salaries can be inflated in some regions, but even in Silicon Valley a starting high tech salary above $100K cannot be common. Recent grads are like babies, not worth much for a couple years.
People with skills genuinely in demand by industry will never have to fear about job security and perks unless industry changes so that those skills are no longer so valuable, or unless those skills become common enough that they decrease in value.
Yes, these are primary forces. In 2008 high tech skills became less valuable because suddenly there were fewer jobs requiring those skills. Jobs for lawyers dried up, too. But there's another dynamic at work, because the lost salaries, benefits, perks and job security have largely not returned.
It gets into another aspect altogether to mention that the very fabric of everyday economic life has inalterably changed for the worse. Blame finance, blame the Internet, blame what you will, but you can't get someone helpful on the phone in less than five minutes if at all, corporations and such hide themselves behind impenetrable walls of email, chat boxes and browser forms, brick and mortar outlets are dying, many simple activities have become complicated and lengthy.
Here are a couple recent examples from my own life:
  • You can no longer call the IRS for information. To check on a certain matter I must visit the local office. I've had to to visit the office twice and must do so again in three weeks. If I call the number for the local office I receive the recorded message, "We do not provide telephone assistance at this number." Fortunately the wait seems to average only around 10 minutes, and my local office is only 15 minutes away, but that isn't true for most parts of my small state, and I'll bet there are parts of Texas hours away from an office.
  • I purchased an iBook from the online Apple store that won't open. I filed a problem report online and received an email telling me I would be contacted within 48 hours, which passed a short while ago. Maybe I'll hear from them any minute, but it would surprise me. I think it more likely that I'll wait a week, file another report, wait a week, then make an appointment at the local Apple store. Fortunately there *is* a local Apple store.
    Compare this with purchasing a book at the local Barnes and Noble and discovering that page 113 is missing. I would return to the store and return the book for a refund or exchange it for an intact copy. There's no ambiguity, there's no lengthy wait wondering how the issue will be resolved.
Whatever the cause, we have witnessed a loss of economic wealth and a diminishing of quality of life at all but the highest levels. I opened this thread to comment on high tech because that's what I know and that's what the Times piece was about, but the impact has been far broader.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by caffeine, posted 04-19-2016 4:20 PM caffeine has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 27 (782193)
04-20-2016 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Percy
04-18-2016 6:44 PM


It's expected that greater skill levels will bring greater bargaining power.
Expected? (Be wary of sentences where the pronoun's antecedent is nowhere to be found.)
Not necessarily universally expected, IMO. Skill --> Money is expected only when there are shortages/scarcity compared to demand for those skill levels (when price is considered of course). After all, the distinction between highly and typically skilled is in the eye of the employer or other market participant. One might ask whether a welder or a machinist shop foreman is 'less skilled' in some abstract way than a programmer and not be able to give a meaningful answer in response.
Of course you know and likely meant us to assume you said all of that stuff, and may find my pointing it out to be a bit of an insult. No insult intended. Please consider that your messages might not represent you as well as you think it does. It does not actually say any of what ought to be fairly obvious. And we cannot assume the obvious. People post silly stuff here all the time.
And of course it has turned out that the labor market for high tech has in the past been 'artificially' tightened by language skills and the cost of using globally available labor. It turns out that the world is chock full of programmers and other IT folk of various level of specialization and that there are many ways to get at those people even locally when offshoring is not an option. On the other hand, there are still some soft (often translated as 'lower') skills that must be placed locally.
One of the things about your initial that seems to have bothered ringo, and also me to a lesser extent, is the elitist nature of your initial post, something that seems to me to be reinforced in the assumption in other posts that you and other tech workers ought to have great perks because of their education (well ought to but for those evil finance types). Yes I know that there are other folks who did take less rigorous paths as undergraduates, but are you more skilled than a childhood educator that specialized in working with autistic children? Or an MBA working in finance? Or a Mercedes auto mechanic ? By what measure can we even attempt to answer those questions?
Removed ABE:
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : Removed remarks added after Percy acknowledged.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Percy, posted 04-18-2016 6:44 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 04-20-2016 1:07 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 20 by Percy, posted 04-21-2016 8:23 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22359
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 14 of 27 (782205)
04-20-2016 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by NoNukes
04-20-2016 10:54 AM


NoNukes writes:
And we cannot assume the obvious.
Of course we can. People don't usually bother stating the obvious, and it's often annoying when they do. You can't freely speculate just because the obvious wasn't stated. If you're wondering what I'm thinking about something, just ask.
One of the things about your initial that seems to have bothered ringo, and also me to a lesser extent, is the elitist nature of your initial post,...
I can't help the things you think you see in my initial post, but it's an honest account. What the financial collapse of 2008 did to high tech was of course echoed in many other industries and employment categories, and writing about my own personal experience in high tech does not imply otherwise.
...something that seems to me to be reinforced in the assumption in other posts that you and other tech workers ought to have great perks because of their education...
This assumption is something you're reading into my posts.
And of course it has turned out that the labor market for high tech has in the past been 'artificially' tightened by language skills and the cost of using globally available labor.
This isn't unique to high tech.
One of the sad things today is how college graduates are taking on a great deal of debt just to qualify to work in industries that no longer compensate that well or provide positive work environments. I'm not sure of all the specific long term implications (certainly the debt burden will hinder their entry into the nest-feathering stage), but they can't be good, for both individuals and the country.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by NoNukes, posted 04-20-2016 10:54 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by NoNukes, posted 04-20-2016 3:48 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 27 (782208)
04-20-2016 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Percy
04-20-2016 1:07 PM


Of course we can. People don't usually bother stating the obvious, and it's often annoying when they do.
It was unclear what you meant, and the correct way to determine is to ask or to explore both possibilities. For the record, I would not have been annoyed by having some additional clarification in your remarks. Further, I did not pillory you over your initial remarks, despite the fact that they appeared to be very much elitist. Instead I gave you my own perspective by expanding that to other occupations. But nothing in your original statement even pointed in that direction.
So your statement was a perfectly legitimate opinion, just an elitist one. Similarly, your statement about expectations for the highly skill was not well qualified. So, just whose place is it to add the clarity? You seem to be saying that I should have assumed that you had actually made more accurate statements despite the fact that I am unsure of what you mean. My own position is that it is okay to seek clarification or to alternatively point out why I think your statement is problematic. I think I did a bit of both.
This assumption is something you're reading into my posts.
Your posts don't leave these issues completely open; they lean toward being elitist about the tech industry and then, once questioned, you added remarks about the value of the skills held by certain other professionals. Your statements could easily have been much clearer. And this time you cannot simply say that I am the only person who missed your meaning. Perhaps part of the fault lies with you.
At least that's my opinion. I accept that you do not agree and that it is no big deal that we do not agree.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people. Martin Luther King
If there are no stupid questions, then what kind of questions do stupid people ask? Do they get smart just in time to ask questions? Scott Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Percy, posted 04-20-2016 1:07 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Percy, posted 04-20-2016 4:27 PM NoNukes has replied

  
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