EvC Forum: Dogs will be Dogs wil be ???

A common creationist argument is that evolution does not show that a sufficient level of change can be demonstrated to have occurred in the fossil record, and that thousands of years of breeding of dogs has not produced something that is not a dog:

"The fossil record shows variations of all sorts of things but will time turn a dog kind into something that we would say is clearly not a dog? "
Beretta, Message 7

There are several issues involved in this question. One is just how much change is necessary to convince a creationist that large scale change has occurred. Another is whether macroevolution is defined by large scale change.

To answer these questions lets do a little comparative anatomy:

Red Fox
Red fox - Wikipedia
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Canidae
Genus: Vulpes
Species: V. vulpes

House Cat
Cat - Wikipedia
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Felidae
Genus: Felis
Species: F. silvestris
Subspecies: F. s. catus

Where the standard for comparison of features is the variations within the dog varieties that have been bred by humans over the last several thousands of years

Dog
Dog - Wikipedia
Domain: Eukaryota
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Carnivora
Family: Canidae
Genus: Canis
Species: C. lupus
Subspecies: C. l. familiaris

The question will be whether the difference in the traits between the cat and the red fox is MORE or LESS than the maximum differences within varieties of dogs. We'll call this factor delta/Dog with these categories:

  +3 = much more difference between cat and fox than between dog and dog
+2 = more difference between cat and fox than between dog and dog
+1 = a little more difference between cat and fox than between dog and dog
0 = no difference between cat and fox than between dog and dog
-1 = a little less difference between cat and fox than between dog and dog
-2 = less difference between cat and fox than between dog and dog
-3 = much less difference between cat and fox than between dog and dog
Trait             House Cat         Red Fox    delta/Dog
Nose              small             small         -2
Whiskers          long              long          -2
Tooth size        small             small         -3
Tooth type        carnassial pair   canine        +1
Tongue            keratin hooks     standard      +2
food              carnivorous       carnivorous   -3
Snout             small/short       small/long    -3
Eyes              2                 2              0
Eye pupils        slitted           slitted        0
Eye color         several           gold/yellow    0
Ears              2                 2              0
Ear shape         Pointed           Pointed       -3
Ear size          small             small         -3
Ear control       good              good          -3
Head size         small             small         -3
Neck              short             short         -3
body size         small             small         -3
legs              4                 4              0
leg/body length   short             short         -3
paws              4                 4              0
claws             5x4               5x4            0
Claws             retractable       not           +3
Tail              long              long          -3
Fur               short to long     long          -2
Fur type          straight          straight      -3
....                                                
(subtotal)                                       -36
(average so far)                               -1.44

Those are most of the visible differences. Feel free to add to the list with whatever comes to mind. In a lot of the -3 cases the needle is pegged at much much less difference between cat and fox than within varieties of dog.

When we compare the skeletons, we can match bone for bone from cat to fox to dog, but we see much more variation in size and proportions within the dog population than between cat and fox. There are no bones that are special to cats or foxes or dogs. This can be counted as a -3 x number of bones.

For additional comparisons see:

Cat skeleton
Red Fox skeleton
Dog skeleton

When we compare internal organs, we can match organ for organ from cat to fox to dog, but we see much more variation in size and proportions within the dog population than between cat and fox. There are no organs that are special to cats or foxes or dogs. This can be counted as a -3 x number of organs.

Conclusion: from feature to feature to feature, a cat is more similar to a red fox than some dogs are like other dogs.

The dog is in the species C. lupus
The dog is in the genus Canis

The fox is in the species V. vulpes
The fox is in the genus Vulpes

The taxon level where dogs and foxes are related is in the Canidae family

The cat is in the species F. silvestris
The cat is in the genus Felis
The domestic cat is in the Felidae family

The taxon level where cats and foxes are related is in the Order Carnivora

By biological evolution standards this means that there is greater macroevolutionary 'distance' between cats and foxes than between foxes and dogs and much more macroevolutionary 'distance between cats and foxes than there is within the dog species

Conclusion: "large scale change" is not a measure of macroevolution ... as used by evolutionary biologists.

Back to the original quote:

"The fossil record shows variations of all sorts of things but will time turn a dog kind into something that we would say is clearly not a dog? "
Beretta, Message 7

So what would you like this to become?

Would a horse be enough? Would you dispute that a horse is clearly not a dog?

So the questions that creationists must answer are:

(1) If your definition of macroevolution is different from evolutionary biology what is it?
(2) Why do you think it is a valid definition?
(3) How much change is necessary?
(4) Why isn't the difference between cat and fox a valid criteria?

We'll start with those - and see what turns up.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : changed dog/dog to dog/wolf for clarity

Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

4 online now:	kjsimons, LamarkNewAge, Taq, Theodoric
Newest Member:	ChatGPT
Post Volume:	Total: 916,692 Year: 3,949/9,624 Month: 820/974 Week: 147/286 Day: 63/84 Hour: 15/9