Women's Reactions to Rape

Until men have proven themselves worthy of that trust, no, I don't condone it. "Trust" gets one in three women raped in their lifetime. What we need is a whole hell of a lot of distrust of men by women. No, quite the contrary. Everything that you've said so far - that women can't defend themselves, and shouldn't even try; that it's a man's job to protect their women; that women need to just live with the fact that some of them are going to get raped - makes it pretty clear that you believe that the only thing women have to do to prevent rape is to not provoke it, or something.If that's not what you meant, well, you haven't at all explained what you did mean. Accountability? Rapists go to jail when we find them. Who else needs to be held accountable? Fantastic, but aside from not raping women, and telling people you know not to rape women, there's not a damn thing you can do, because you'll never be where a rape is happening; and even if you were, you won't be in a position to render any sort of aid.

Please post my EXACT words where I say this. I might have said the first part was an unrealistic solution (more of an "arm's race" approach) and the last part is your delusion.CRASH's spin: TAQLESS's Actual statement: Specifically, since you seem stuck on the physical ways that a man could lend support (bias?). Showing equal presence in pushing for gender education, stricter laws, etc. I do not believe self-defense STOPS rape....do you?? In the end it is an act that reflects a certain thinking/mentality/misconception.CRASH's spin: really?TAQLESS: CRASH: really? see above, not really sure how much clearer I could be? Pick a specific statement I have actually made (subtract your conjecture)and I will be willing to expound on it. Oh, but according to you I could change the whole rape situation by knowing self-defense or having a gun, so that even if the victim was not prepared according to your suggestion then I could assist...

Message 135:

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Women should carry guns? Women should learn hand-to-hand combat?

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So ridiculous that, you must be joking.

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I would argue that men should do something about it, afterall: these women represent our wives, our mothers, our daughters, our sisters.

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Apparently, to you, the women who are nobody's sister, daughter, wife, or mother don't deserve any kind of protection. According to the statistics, yes, it does. It's still not clear enough. You're still talking about the education. I understood that part. Who did you believe should be held accountable? That's what I don't understand. Not according to me. According to the statistics.

YOU claimed I said this: The quote you posted does not support this. Okay? Are you trying to put words in my mouth so that you can get angrier? I missed some women, you have my personal apology. Okay, gotcha'. I meant accountability as a society. Specifically the way in which girls are skewed towards love and boys are skewed towards sex. We are bombarded by this discrepancy virtually everywhere. If you want I can elaborate, but I won't at this time because I think it quickly strays from your initial post. Well, stats ARE NOT what you posted and I certainly did not get this indication that's where you were coming from. My apologies, so what post did you cite the stats in? I'm interested to see what they are.-Thanks

I guess if you can't read, or something. What did you mean by simultaneously suggesting that it was useless for women to try to protect themselves physically and then insisting it was the job of men to do it for them, then? No, I'm trying to un-spin your spin and make sure that the people reading don't get confused about what you really believe. Of course, I think there's a strong possibility that you don't consider your own views sexist, and I'm trying to show you how that's not the case. To the contrary. at least twice I've alluded to message 56 of this thread, where I presented the statistics that laid out my case.So, yes. I've posted the statistics, which you would have known if you'd bothered to aquaint yourself with the discussion before jumping in. All you've posted is the same nonsense about "making it worse" that I rebutted as far back as message 56.But, look, this is all getting away from my basic point - if men were preyed upon by enormous werewolves who lived among us to the extent that men prey on the women that live among them, all men would be highly armed, and we'd live in a martial culture designed to offer men the best chance to resist attacks by fellow humans tranformed into monsters.But when it's men turning into the monsters, and women as the prey, we do nothing except counsel victims after the fact. We do nothing except send herds of women around the city, "taking back the night." We do nothing except "raise awareness of the issue" - an issue that everyone is already aware of. And when I suggest strategies for women to physically resist rapists, strategies with proven statistical effect, I'm roundly ridiculed - most stridently by the women themselves.It's a major double standard; it's a cultural conspiracy that ensures women will be easy prey for rape, and it's a conspiracy that the community of women are, knowingly or not, actively complicit in.I just don't get it.

In your post you have suggested that
1) The readers might get confused by what I've written
2) I might not realize that I'm sexistI do not think this is confusing:
-You suggest self-defense, carrying guns, and constant distrust of men as a valid solution to rape.
-I suggest addressing the "root" problem, education and accountability (societal)...neither rebutted by you...because you agree??
-I did not see where your stats said that knowing self-defense stopped the rape.
-While I would concur that based on what you have posted it doesn't have a negative impact on the situation (in general).
-My caution is women getting a false sense of security, and people thinking that the problem really is no bigger than learning self-defense.What "we" do you keep spouting off about? A good feeling is a proven effect? Now, you are suggesting that what?.....I'm a woman and that's why I am critical of your approach?

Not just valid, but obvious, and the solution men would implement if the roles were reversed. The "root problem" is men raping women. There's nobody to be accountable but the rapists, and we already hold them accountable to the greatest degree we're able to, through the apparatus of law. The way the study is structured, that's not a meaningful question. Once you're in a situation where you're called upon to defend yourself, you're already a victim of sexual assault. A rape has already occured, according to the parameters of the study.Did self-defense prevent greater injury? The study clearly states that, in the majority of cases, it did. Self-defense does not give a false sense of security. Self-defense gives situational awareness - the knowledge of when you are secure and when you are not.It is ignorance that gives a false sense of security, and it is your position that stresses ignorance over preparedness. Did it ever occur to you that I might be referring to the other people that have posted in this thread? God, get over yourself for a minute. There were 100 posts in this thread when you jumped in; it didn't start with you.

Tagless- "...if it is an issue of rape within a marriage or a boyfriend where there is consensual use of the body as well as the living space the lines become blurred."Hmm good point Tagless.Once again I see a slightly more informed side of this all important issue.

Tagless- "Women should learn hand-to-hand combat?
-So ridiculous that, you must be joking"No actually, we aren't joking in the least bit. Sorry to hear you think it is a joke when a woman is being raped that she have the skills to defend herself. After a comment like that I'm not sure if I should read your posts.If implying that self defence for women geared towards rape prevention is some kind of joke, then I'm the biggest clown around. I would hope that my solid wrestling background, boxing background, kickboxing experience, grappling abilities and submission techniques aren't a joke. If they are then why have I spent nearly 5 years dishing out money, learning and competing just so I can teach it for the cost of $50 an hour to the next person who is more than happy to pay this? 50 an hour and weeks of training is one hell of a price to pay for a good laugh. Especially when that "all so familiar" rapist comes along.Tagless- "I would argue that men should do something about it, afterall: these women represent our wives, our mothers, our daughters, our sisters."OK, so since you think that self defense is a "joke" I suppose your gonna hold her hand when she's on a date? Really what is your solution that invovles MEN? That they shouldnt do it? I think everyone here agrees that it shouldn't happen. Tell me, what examples of men are there that can successfully prevent rape?

Tagless- "My caution is women getting a false sense of security, and people thinking that the problem really is no bigger than learning self-defense."What false sence of security?
If every woman can defend herself for being raped then there is no false sense of security. I think I know what you are saying.."Men shouldn't do that sort of thing!"Trust me Tagless, I'm one of many who agrees...it's just not as simple as saying "1...2...3...makitstop!"

oh yes breed distrust. that's a brilliant idea.

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Until men have proven themselves worthy of that trust, no, I don't condone it. "Trust" gets one in three women raped in their lifetime. What we need is a whole hell of a lot of distrust of men by women.

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I'm not sure I want to live in the way you are suggesting, Crash, even if it does mean that my chances of being raped are somewhat higher.I am not saying that women should blindly trust everyone. I think that everyone needs to be very careful about whom they associate with, even on a casual basis.I think it comes down to individuals, and it comes down to how we raise our male children.The reason you hold the values you do is because you were taught them, and you were supported in your beliefs about women and about rape.That is relatively new and radical if you consider the whole of human history on this issue.Slow change is lasting change, and the more people who are raised and encouraged to have our values and principles, the more the world will reflect those values and principles.I don't want to distrust men as a group. That's not fair.

Well, that's your call. If you place avoiding interpersonal friction over your physical safety, I can't argue with that. Though I don't see that as a reasonable set of priorities.And honestly, living this way isn't that bad. Adolescent males live this way just fine. I get along perfectly well with my male friends, despite the mutual understanding that we're prepared to attack each other in earnest in self-defense or on principle, should it become necessary. Men have lived that way for centuries, in every culture. Men distrust each other as a group. It's honestly not that hard.

After Crashfrog's responses and yours I certainly see that my comment was....less than clear and definitely not sensitive.Since, as I understood it, Crashfrog's opinion was that the actions that are currently undertaken to prevent rape are ineffectual and "I don't get it" there were two things that quickly followed:
1) The way it was being dealt with, indirectly attributed to women, was the above.
2) So, as a better example, follow what men would do
- carry a gun
- learn hand-to-hand combat
- Foster distrust of the opposite sexMy contention was/is the following:
1) This has not worked for our country, or any other situation!
1) All 3 are not solutions and definitely NOT a prevention.
2) One COULD take this, as CF has accused me of, saying that women should do "nothing", but then by default you both are saying that women that do not fall into the above 3 suggestions are "doing nothing" right now, right?
5) The fact is something is being done about it
-Education: college courses, jogging with a partner, caution
around drugs and alcohol, and being aware of your
environment...REAL PREVENTATIVE measures!!
6) The problem with the statistics that were provided is that CF, as I understood in the way the stats were presented with his/her comments, was trying to draw a parallel between the decrease in rape with women getting physical.....I would argue that the correlation between physicality and post act psychology was probably the best correlation that could be made. For Christ's sake I meant they should be seen as working towards this in the limelight along side women (not just the husbands/boyfriend's of victims), and that if it required FURTHER thought that they have a vested interest because it could happen to THEIR sisters/mothers/friends (I guess I was made the bad guy by CF for that statement before but..)!! I think it is a critical role that could boost and set an example for boys/men everywhere....or maybe I'm just not keen on having to deal with more distrust of men...especially since some of us have benefited greatly from the examples set by our father's. I'm against the notion though that we invoke aggression and distrust as a solution. You need to ask and address WHY men are committing this act and how can it be prevented? Not rant and rave about the way women are dealing with the situation. I think by changing the way men and women think about each other has far more potential, which I would argue the stats that CF showed are indicative of.

That's exactly what arming women does. Men stop thinking of women as physically powerless creatures that they have to protect, and as capable combatants with the power to protect themselves.