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Author Topic:   Gorilla strength
psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 287 (316340)
05-30-2006 3:54 PM


FACTS OF THE MATTER...
This is a very detailed response. I've tried to get very specific and answer several of your questions.
There are several factors we need to look at when considering the strength of a gorilla compared to a human:
1) Neurological efficiency.
2) Types of Muscle Fibers available (I, IIA, IIB).
3) Joint, Tendon, bone structure (this was mentioned by one member).
4) Insertion points (this was discussed by one member). This is related to the leverages of the muscle attachments.
5) Muscle Belly Length (Longer Muscles are better).
5) Muscle mass (this was mentioned).
7) Motivation.
Gorillas are not built exactly like human beings and comparing their strength to human beings requires some guesswork. Gorillas, like most other primates, have an upper body structure built for certain types of powerful movements. They would struggle to play the piano or manipulate small objects, but they could bend a license plate a lot easier than most humans.
We are built for fine motor skills and moderate amounts of power (ie. throwing with accuracy). As mentioned by another poster, gorillas have better leverages than humans in their arms. Pound for pound, a large part of their muscle mass is in their arms, shoulder, back and chest. Their total muscle mass per pound of bodyweight isn't that much different than humans though. But then again, that's because they have such heavy bones and because their lower bodies have less proportionate muscle mass.
Guessing how much they could actually bench press is very difficult. I've never heard a report describing the distribution of fast twitch fibers in a gorilla, although I expect it to be extremely high in the arms and upper back. Moreover, we don't know how well a gorilla’s nervous system works when it recruits muscle fibers. During an adrenaline rush humans can sometimes exert forces that will break their bones. This means that we have the POTENTIAL for moments of great strength-- even if we are skinny.
You see, humans have weaker bones and so our nervous system generally prevents us from recruiting all our muscle fibers for a single movement. If it didn't we would break ourselves! A gorilla has bones that are very thick, so it wouldn't have to have nearly as strong of an inhibitory response. A gorilla can probably recruit a lot more fibers in the upper body whenever it wants to. Some humans that are gifted in strength sports have a high distribution of fast twitch fibers and great neurological efficiency. This is probably far more common amongst silverback gorillas.
So let's look at these factors. A big silverback gorilla has more mass in its arms, chest, shoulders etc. than even very large human beings. It probably has a lot of fast Twitch fibers in these areas. Its upper body has bone structure, insertion points, long muscle bellies and excellent tendon/ligament structure designed for brute strength movements. Its bones are built to protect it during power movements and hence it probably doesn't have nearly as strong of an inhibitory response when it engages in power movements.
Considering these factors, it’s obvious that a gorilla is VERY STRONG in the upper body, for certain movements.
But does this mean a gorilla can lift 4,000 lbs over its head? Hell no. To me, that sounds like fantasy. The gorilla is not designed for pressing things over its head. It's designed for pulling, bending, and grabbing things. Just look at its anatomy.
Considering the above factors you could safely say that a silverback gorilla is 4 or 5 times stronger than a healthy and well built human male (IN THOSE TYPES OF MOVEMENTS) but not when it comes to doing things that require movements that are not natural for a gorilla. Again, a gorilla could bend things very easily. It could snap things, tear things and grab things with crushing force. It could probably rip a telephone book in half without much practice. Its power in these movements would be truly scary compared to a human.
However, I wouldn't be surprised if a professional world class power lifter could bench press more than an untrained gorilla. True, the gorilla would have far more potential than an average human at the bench press, but nobody knows how well the gorilla could do in a bench press if it was trained. Sorry, but I wouldn't be surprised if a silverback struggled to get past 500 pounds. I also wouldn't be surprised if it managed to do 2,000 pounds. We just don't know.
As explained, there are too many factors involved. We don't know how all the factors listed above would work together for the gorilla, in this type of movement.
This is about as honest and accurate of an answer you will get.
One thing we do know is that chimpanzees have been tested in pulling, gripping and dead lifting movements and they exceeded untrained humans by several times (per pound of bodyweight)-- as much as 4 times or even more.
The Guinness book of World Records once estimated that a silverback gorilla could dead lift 1,800 (based on the results of the tests on Chimps). They stated that this would POSSIBLY be true if the silverback was trained. The world record for the dead lift by the strongest human on the planet is around 900 lbs. These estimates are believable and realistic, but there is still a lot of guessing involved.
Notice that these are pulling movements and gripping movements, not pressing movements. Pressing 4000 pounds above the head is unrealistic.
It's much easier to get these animals to do pulling and grabbing types of movements because they are built for them and they come naturally.
By the way, people have actually competed Grizzly bears against lions and the Grizzly Bears almost always won. Grizzly bears were also pitted against bulls and they usually won. Grizzly bears would break the backs of these other animals.
But that's rather violent and repulsive. I'd rather compare their brute strength and power, not which animal can kill the other.

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 287 (321507)
06-14-2006 4:11 PM


Evidence provided here.
Here is video of an actual fight between a mountain lion and a grizzly bear. Notice that the mountain lion hardly hurt the grizzly, but this particular grizzly wasn't really in the mood for a fight. An aggressive grizzly would have really been dangerous.
It's not just a matter of the stronger beast, it's also a matter of the motivation and gameness.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7MuFDVEUro&search=grizzl...

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 74 of 287 (322388)
06-16-2006 4:54 PM


More evidence...
Interspecies conflict. Which animal is the ultimate carnivore?
I believe in evidence, not conjecture. All I know is what the link you provided implies; it implies that large grizzly bears can defeat normal sized male lions.
We don't know, with absolute certainty, how a 400 lb. grizzly would do against a 400 lb. lion. Moreover, that's not a fair comparison because fully matured and large grizzlies are built differently than immature and/or smaller grizzlies. Finally, strength is determined by cross sectional muscle mass, not volume. Smaller animals are pound for pound generally stronger than larger animals.
As a result, to make it a fair fight you need to scale up the lion, not scale down the grizzly. This will slow the lion down, decrease its agility and change its bone structure.
A healthy and strong LIGER would be more equal in size to a big grizzly. This is the fight you should really be imagining. I have no idea which animal would win or which would truly be stronger, pound for pound.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 287 (330494)
07-10-2006 3:35 PM


SCIENTIFIC FACTS OF STRENGTH...
I'm going to discuss some of the things I've mentioned before. It's important to look at the facts. Let's avoid all the guessing.
It's all science and mathematics, my friends. Let's just think about it logically. A gorilla is certainly strong, but primarily in movements that are natural to its adaptations. I like the GUINESS BOOK OF WORLD RECORD'S 1985 edition estimate that a STRONG and healthy AVERAGE silverback gorilla could probably deadlift about 2 times that of the world's strongest man (if it were trained). The scientists used actual performance of chimpanzees in specific movements to estimate that an average highly trained (500 lb.) silverback gorilla might deadlift 1,800 lbs whereas the world's strongest men might deadlift 900 lbs. An average man might deadlift 200 lbs.
No other research to date has been based on as much hard evidence. Even so, these estimates are very rough.
Case in point: This evidence indicates that an average 500 lb. silverback gorilla MIGHT be 9 times stronger than an average man and 2 times stronger than the world's strongest man (but only in movements that it excels at).
The estimates used by shows on the Discovery channel argue that silverback gorillas are 20 times stronger than average humans. These estimates are not valid because they are based on gorillas breaking bamboo. Why are the estimates invalid? The gorilla often bites the bamboo which makes it easier to break. Hence this is not a pure arm strength measurement! The Discovery channel pretends it is scientific estimate of the gorillas arm strength.
These estimates are even more ridiculous because they assume that just because the gorilla is much stronger than humans in certain movements that this automatically transfers to a lot of other movements. In other words, Discovery took the bogus 20 times stronger figure and applied it to overhead lifts (which gorillas would suck at). This is just absurd and is very poor scientific thinking. The whole thing is ridiculous.
A gorilla CANNOT lift 4,000 lbs. overhead. This is not an opinion. It is a fact. I say this with almost absolute certainty. A gorilla CANNOT lift 2,000 lbs. overhead. This isn't because a gorilla is weak. A gorilla would struggle to maintain balance if it tried to press a weight greater than its own bodyweight overhead. Its legs don't have the right balance of stabilizing muscles, its back is not erect enough, and its arms are too long. An overhead press would not even be a fair test of the gorilla's strength! The bench press would be easier for the gorilla, but the gorilla still has mechanical disadvantages (i.e. extremely long arms). I would be absolutely shocked if a gorilla could bench press anywhere near 2,000 lbs even with extensive training. (And yes, I'm assuming the gorilla cooperated.)
If the strongest man on the planet can bench-press 700 lbs. (without support gear), a trained healthy male silverback gorilla may or may not be able to match that. I don't know. We just don't know the gorillas potential. So many factors make it difficult to guess. Physical strength is a very complex characteristic involving multiple factors (mass, neuroligical efficiency, tendon shape etc.).
In conclusion, a gorilla is certainly much stronger than an average man in MOST movements, but possibly weaker than the world's strongest men in some movements. Humans are good at overhead lifts. World class power lifters are well designed for bench pressing. Gorillas might beat the strongest men in most upper body movements, but not all of them.
These are the facts.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 195 of 287 (330515)
07-10-2006 4:18 PM


Truth and Science...
I think that it is scientifically valid to conclude that a healthy gorilla could seriously hurt even very large human beings. Overall the gorilla is certainly better designed for combat.
It's the bogus strength estimates from the Discovery channel that are ridiculous.
Gorillas have very thick bones, enormous trapezius muscles and powerful jaws. A gorilla could take a lot of head blows that would knockout large human boxers.

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 198 of 287 (330533)
07-10-2006 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by LudoRephaim
07-10-2006 4:38 PM


Re: SCIENTIFIC FACTS OF STRENGTH...
Yes, I agree with you on these points. Gorillas are very strong, but not as strong as the Discovery show attempted to portray.

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 Message 196 by LudoRephaim, posted 07-10-2006 4:38 PM LudoRephaim has replied

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 200 of 287 (330544)
07-10-2006 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by LudoRephaim
07-10-2006 4:38 PM


Re: SCIENTIFIC FACTS OF STRENGTH...
I actually once saw something very strange that surprised me. For years I have wished I had a digital camera at the time. My mouth dropped open when I saw this.
I was at the Como zoo in MN. There was a 475 lb. muscular Western Lowland silverback gorilla known as "Casey" chasing another gorilla behind the glass enclosure. I believe the gorilla he was chasing was named "Schroeder". "Schroeder" weighs over 500 lbs.
Anyhow, inside the enclosure there is a big crevice between two sets of rocked paths. I actually saw "Casey" leap across the enclosure by extending his arms so he looked like Superman flying through the air and then landing on the other side. He did this while chasing the other gorilla. Think of how you would expect a mountain lion to leap across a crevice to reach the other side. It looked similar. He had a running start and then leapt off his back legs landing on all four on the other side. I was absolutely amazed that this huge creature leapt more than 20 feet. I promise that this is legitimate. I saw it with my own eyes.
So while the Discovery channel is guilty of overestimating the ability of gorillas, sometimes we are also guilty of underestimating them. Gorillas are better jumpers than people realize. That's why they have escaped their enclosures at times. In fact, Casey escaped the enclosure at the Como zoo more than once. You can read about him online. Casey was moved to another zoo, but he was a very social and often friendly gorilla.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 202 of 287 (330554)
07-10-2006 5:37 PM


Orangutans...
Orangutans actually have less muscle mass per pound of fat than gorillas. I read this in an article.
Orangutans DID outperform gorillas when it came to breaking coconuts with their teeth. However, the reasons why are unclear. Gorillas are far less assertive when it comes to these types of things. These tests were done at a zoo. Gorillas just don't try very hard unless they want to. Motivation may have been the primary factor.
At the same time, there are many reasons to suspect that orangutans have very strong arms, but weaker shoulders than gorillas. The proportionate muscle mass of a silverback is greater in the shoulders than an orangutan. Orangutans are not as well adapted to actual combat either so they have less mass in the neck. Neck muscles in silverback gorillas allow them to tolerate blows to the head.
I've gotta' run. I won't have time to post anymore.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.

  
psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 287 (330756)
07-11-2006 8:45 AM


JaketheSnake...
I'm an avid martial artist and a fan of boxing and mma. I haven't read your other postings and can't draw many strong conclusions about what you wrote in your last response.
You seem to believe that a guy like Fedor Emelianenko could beat up a healthy 500 lb. silverback gorilla.
You also argue that a gorilla's head isn't all that different from that of a human being-- except for cranial capacity.
These are interesting arguments. I do know that trapezius muscles, jaw size, length of the neck and skull size, tucking of the chin, and bone thickness all heavily correlate with your ability to take head shots to the face and jaw without being knocked out.
Mark Hunt is an example of a mma fighter with great genetics when it comes to withstanding knockout punches.
A gorilla has a vastly better profile. Its structure IS designed to withstand hard shots to the head. There is no doubt about that.
It would be interesting to see a gorilla and a mma fighter wrestle, but I don't think that is ever going to happen. I wouldn't want them to fight though. Gorillas just want to eat.
I don't know what would happen, but as much as I admire Fedor, I'd put my money on the gorilla.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 287 (330760)
07-11-2006 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by psaghafi
07-11-2006 8:45 AM


Leaping ability of gorillas...
To read about "Casey II the gorilla" jumping out of the Como zoo enclosure go here: Page not found - Como Zoo Conservatory
Scroll down to "1994".
The Como zoo actually had to expand the enclosure just to avoid his escapes from the zoo. Everyone was amazed at his ability to jump.
I never saw him escape from the outdoor exhibit. I just saw him jump across a 20 foot or so crevice when he was running around in the indoor exhibit. Casey is one agile and big gorilla!
My feeling is that healthy silverback gorillas are able to generate leaping strength by curling up their backs into a ball while moving. When I saw Casey jump he sort of galloped and then curled up mid gallop and suddenly erected his body using the lower back muscles to generate a lot of power. It's almost like the lower back and middle back were used as much as the legs.
Also, Casey's arms are so long and powerful that he was able to reach across the crevice and generate even more thrust with the upper body. He then caught the other side with his forehands and landed on all fours (just like a lion would).
Weird.

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 287 (331087)
07-12-2006 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 209 by LudoRephaim
07-11-2006 2:36 PM


Gorillas and Neanderthals...
Let's get one thing totally straight. The argument that a gorilla has a head structure "not all that different from humans" can be very misleading. What this statement really means is that gorillas have eyes, a nose, a mouth, and ears placed in approximately the same location as ours. So in this context, the gorilla is more similar to humans than other animals. It DOES NOT mean that gorillas have a jaw, skull, neck and bone structure that will only absorb about the same amount of abuse as ours. They can absorb A LOT more. Again, this isn't an opinion; it's a fact. If you don't buy this argument then you're being stubborn.
Without a doubt, the main reason gorillas are so thick boned is because their lifestyle requires them to utilize much more strength than us. The silverbacks are also designed to FIGHT if they have to and to NOT GET HURT when they fight.
Now for a little conjecture: I think it will be incredibly difficult for a human mma fighter to submit a gorilla. Their long arms and thick bones would make arm bars, kimuras and other techniques difficult. Their enormous and short necks would make rear-naked chokes very hard. Their skulls, jaw and head structure would make knockouts by bare handed humans near impossible. Let's also not forget that the gorilla WILL BITE. It won't follow mma rules. A bite from a gorilla is not like a bite from a human.
The more I think about it the more convinced I am that a silverback gorilla would not only survive, but do very well against the best mma fighters on the planet.
The article on Neanderthal lifting a ton is interesting. I'm not sure how they could estimate that Neanderthal could lift that much. Sounds like a very rough estimate to me.
One thing is for sure-- the average Neanderthal was a lot stronger than the average man.
It still surprises me that there is so much analysis about the scientific morphology of Neanderthal man and his estimated strength level while there is relatively little scientific analysis of the modern gorilla and strength. Most of the information online about gorilla strength is based on conjecture.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 212 of 287 (331110)
07-12-2006 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by LudoRephaim
07-12-2006 10:49 AM


Re: Gorillas and Neanderthals...
I was referring to Jake, not you, my friend. You made it very clear that the gorilla skull and human skull are not identical. On this point I certainly agree with you. Sorry for the confusion.
Jake makes a lot of good points, and his arguments are interesting and intelligent. However, my honest feeling is that a few of his arguments are based on his deep respect for human athleticism, not reality. I think it's cool to stand up for people, because we are quite special and unique, but I believe our potential IS limited in certain fields. Anecdotal reports of humans doing well in combat with animals are biased and misleading. People lie, exaggerate and stack the odds in their favor to color reality.
No offense Jake, but writings by Gene Tunney are not convincing. Gene Tunney was a great boxer in his day, and a scientific thinker, but in those days boxers also thought that boxing was the most effective form of fighting. Boxers thought this not because it was true, but because they wanted to believe it, and it bolstered their position in society.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 213 of 287 (331111)
07-12-2006 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by psaghafi
07-12-2006 11:08 AM


Re: Gorillas and Neanderthals...
Certainly the cross-sectional area of a gorillas bones are far larger than a humans.
Even their pelvic area has extremely large bones.
I still can't believe that Casey the gorilla could jump as far as I saw him jump.
I also just read online that someone claimed to have saw him jump 6 feet up in the air and kick the glass at the Como Zoo. (The glass is actually slightly cracked. You can see the crack when you visit the indoor enclosure!)
You can see a picture of Casey and the statement that he could jump 6 feet high here: http://www.geocities.com/...is/5579/week3livingprimates.html
You may have to click on the cached version of the web site to see it:
casey gorilla 6 feet - Google Search
Click the cached version of the second web site listed.
Again, this is conjecture, not a scientific measurement, but it does remind us that gorillas have better leaping ability than we think.
P
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 214 of 287 (331117)
07-12-2006 11:46 AM


Casey the grasshopper Gorilla
HEHE. Not much fat on that dude.

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psaghafi
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 287 (331145)
07-12-2006 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by LudoRephaim
07-12-2006 12:41 PM


Vertical height...
Yes, as I indicated, my theory is that most of the power is generated by the lower back and hip thrust. The enormous pelvic region of a gorilla is far superior to a human. The upper body then follows through in a spring-like motion. When I witnessed Casey jump length-wise I believe this was evident and I assume it'd be similar if he jumped height-wise.
We are used to thinking of leaping in terms of calf and upper leg power, but that applies to humans.
Gorillas other than Casey have escaped enclosures (requiring leaping ability) and absolutely boggled the minds of scientists.
Now all I need is for a gorilla to press 2,000 lbs. over his head and totally negate every supposedly logical argument I've made against their ability to do such a thing. What if the gorilla has some mechanical way of adjusting and negating its mechanical weaknesses? I still think that such a feat would probably be impossible due to the biomechanics of the gorilla and the way muscles are organized and designed. However, perhaps I should be more humble and go back to what I originally believed, "I have no clue what these animals can or cannot do until I see something with my own eyes". Perhaps that's the best conclusion I can draw.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.
Edited by psaghafi, : No reason given.

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