Apparently, God hates Sweden now, along with America, Canada, and "fags"

You guys really need to get out more! If I were to say that Crashfrog represents the atheist community, I would be saying something that I had never really examined. While we cannot judge the Christian community publically, we CAN listen to what they have to say publically. For those of you who have hi speed internet computers and can listen to audio, I invite you to compare and contrast Fred Phelps and his blathering rhetoric to three other Christian pastors. If you can honestly tell me that they are in any way alike, I will be forced to examine your argument. Otherwise, you have asserted something entirely baseless.Phelps: Attention Required! | Cloudflare I do NOT endorse him.Three other Christian Pastors whom I would listen to, by the way:http://www.calvarygs.org/radio/2005.htm A man by the name of Raul Ries. Very loving.Listen to Dr. Michael Youssef Sermons - Leading The Way Radio Michael Yousef. A very loving Pastor.Listen to Alistair Begg Sermons - Truth For Life Radio Alister Begg, another good teacher.

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If I were to say that Crashfrog represents the atheist community, I would be saying something that I had never really examined.

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If you were to say that Crashfrog represents the "athiest community" it would make no sense as there is no organized religion of atheism. It is the absence of a belief in god/gods/pink unicorns. It is not a system of beliefs with a codified doctrine or dogma. Xianity is. And if you read my post carefully and not casually, you will see that I did not say that Phelps "represents" Xianity. I said that one can "associate" Xiantity with his beliefs because he represents a large group of like minded indivduals within the movement. Think of it as one can associate Ann Arbor Michigan with college football but that does not make everyone in Ann Arbor a football fan or player.

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While we cannot judge the Christian community publically, we CAN listen to what they have to say publically.

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why can't one judge the Xian community publicly? Has freedom of thought and speech already been eradicated in the US?I will also point out that Xians and particularly creationists are very willing to associate scientists (or those who practice other religions or no religion) with nazi's or any other disgusting group to claim they are superior to everyone else...and they do this frequently and publicly...yet according to you, Xians should not have to accept that within their community there are large groups of Phelp's ideological clones?I don't think it is we who need to get out more...you need to look around (even on this board) at what other Xians are actually saying and proposing.

OK...you have a point. Christians ARE to be rightly judged by what they hold to as the source of morality, which is the Bible. There is a difference. Translate: It is the absence of a belief in an absolute standard. It is a relativistic belief system. I can only lump all relativists together in that they have internalized their own definition of their own mountaintop. They have defined the standard---themselves!I DO get out and I hear the public voices of a couple of thousand Christians ---which of that thousand, perhaps as few as one hundred actually seem helpful. It is one thing to tell people what to do. It is quite another to live such that they actually mimic you.The standard is not flawed, in my opinion. I can hear a thousand intellectuals free from religion and draw a thousand different conclusions---all of them inconclusive. It is like judging Iraq publically.
(which has been done, by the way) Not every citizen is anti U.S., pro Muslim, pro Saddam, or in any way alike except by living in Iraq.
By contrast, all Christians (by name) do not live "In Christ".This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-01-2005 04:21 AM

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I have to reiterate what others have said. Phelps is the face of Xianity that I have experienced my entire life. While I agree that it would be inappropriate to paint all Xians with the same brush merely because there are people like him in the movement, given that he represents such a large and vocal part of the movement, I think it is perfectly fair to associate Xianity with people like Phelps. It is pure fantasy to think he is just a fringe whacko in an otherwise benign group.

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You have experienced Christianity in no other way? An individual who showed what it is to be Christ-affected?It is more than fair to associate Christianity with his kind. Since it is factions of Christianity who allow this type to attach itself and become spokesperson and are drawn into the maelstrom of such rhetoric that loses all semblance of the philosophy of its founder.The way the ayatollah and Hussein have become spokespersons for islam.
And islam is viewed through their perpetrations.Groups are never benign. Groups are most always political movements, with wordly goals. An authentic Christian has no such goals.

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"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Hey, Albert, I agree!

I agree with what you are saying about association. I am not encouraging anyone to take it to extremes and claim that all Xians are the same or have the same viewpoint i.e. I have had positive experiences with Xians even as a non-believer. However, Phatboy was originally objecting to even associating Xianity with Phelp's or those like Phelp's. If Phelp's were the one and only person to act the way he does "in the name of Xianity" one could argue he is a whacko and not representative. However, this is not the case.

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Translate: It is the absence of a belief in an absolute standard. It is a relativistic belief system. I can only lump all relativists together in that they have internalized their own definition of their own mountaintop. They have defined the standard---themselves!

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Ironic then that you have millions of Xians who interpret your so called "absolute standard" any way they see fit and justify just about any kind of behavior (good and bad) based on that "absolute standard"...and all of them claim that they are behaving according to an "absolute standard"...and where do they end up?to quote you:

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They have defined the standard---themselves!

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I think you've articulated an exceptionally important point. One that as an atheist I find more than a bit troubling, in the sense that it appears to me to render expostulations "not to tar all Christians with the same brush" either disingenuous or well, special pleading. Phatboy (and I'm not singling him out except as an illustration), basically engaged in a "no true Scotsman" fallacy by proclaiming that Phelps and his ilk aren't really Christians. And yet, the silence of the mainstream Christian sects - who I'd think would be the first to roundly condemn someone so, erm, un-Christian - is thunderous. Remaining silent is equivalent, IMO, to tacit approval of the message. It doesn't matter how many "nice guys" (as Phatboy attempted to illustrate with his three pastors) there are among Christians, if they allow such a rabid voice to be heard without comment or censure. As an example, when Herrnstein et al, or worse J. Phillipe Rushton, came out with their racist pseudoscience, they were vocally condemned by the biological community (Herrnstein for sloppy science at best, and Rushton for outright racism). Why can't the Christians do the same? And I don't mean on message boards.

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I have had positive experiences with Xians even as a non-believer.

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Thank you and my personal needs are met by your statement.

Phelps is a pastor, is he not? So we know that a few things must be true:1) He passed seminary school, so clearly his doctine was judged sound by his teachers;
2) He was commishioned to lead a church, so clearly his doctine appeals to a congregation.He's an asshole, to be sure. But he's also a legitimate Church leader. That's something that your religion is going to have to deal with. I don't suggest that he's the best Christianity could be; I've seen that here. But he does represent very real attitudes and dogma positions within your religious community.

Wish we could have a face to face. As it is, this medium is poor to express what Christianity in all its isms really presents and not the Christ, but themselves, with individual exceptions, I tell you I run as fast as I can from the collective.And, therefore, I agree with you.

Although I don't know Phelps' history, I do know that anyone can just start calling himself "pastor" and lo and behold we have another pastor.

You bring up a great point. Why doesn't the Christian community actively condemn many voices such as Phelps?I believe that it does. And not just on message boards but from pulpits and even in the media. But unfortunately, there is also a very large group of people who support and concur with everything he says.IMHO the likes of Fred Phelps and Benny Hinn are actually far more typical of modern Christianity than any of us would like to believe. There are also the bigots and blasphemers like Pat Robertson (who would still like to be President), Jerry Falwell (who would still like to control the President), Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Gene Scott and Bob Larson. There is also the organization that built TBN led by Paul Crouch. This organization is the funding platform and training ground for the next generation of shock-jock bigots and hate mongers.As Christians I believe we HAVE to acknowledge such people and speak out against them. Unfortunately, they produce entertainment that people watch, while my voice goes unheard. They are the WWF, the Reality TV, the Growing Up Gotti of religion, and like the WWF, immensely popular.The big question is "Why is there such a large audience for such juvenile and anti-social behavior?"

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Here is what the Bible says: Based on this scripture, what do we define as "sound doctorine"?Certainly, name it and claim it theology which suggests that sowing seed into the travelling tent huckster will bring YOU a hundredfold return on your investment is not sound. Everyone knows, however, that those who cheerfully give more of themselves than they take will come out ahead one way or another.So...quite seriously, does God hate "fags"?My absolute answer is that God hates sin. Sin, by definition, is anything that we do in and of our own self will that does not glorify God. So is watching football a sin? Ask yourself:
1) Do I neglect my family in favor of football.
2) Do I spend a large portion of my day thinking about football, talking about football, and by example teaching my kids about the importance of this passion? If so, and IF I believe that my purpose in life is to shine as an example to my fellow humans, am I living up to the standard?
Does God hate penthouse? Does God hate Sports Illustrated? Does God hate cellphones?This can go on and on....lets flip it. What does God love?

Murdering innocent Egyptian children?

As do I. I've attempted to get feedback and/or initiate similar conversations with several of my Christian friends (all from mainstream sects, btw). However, although expressing to me their dislike of this kind of rhetoric, more-or-less shrug their shoulders (how does it go, "I am not my brother's keeper"? - but wasn't the guy trying to weasel out of something at that point?). Anyway, I'd love to have a good conversation over a beer or three on the subject with someone who's knowledgeable.