healthcare in Canada vs US

roxrkoolI never realized it was so bad there,home of the free,land of the broke eh?

Back when the Clintons tried to change the system in the US, the other big misconception that was circulated, dare I say propagandized by conservative opponents, was that a more socialized system would take away peoples choices w/r/t doctors and care. That was a real crock. You have far more choices in that regard in Canada because you don't have to worry about whether or not your plan is accepted by the doctor of your choice - they're all covered under the same system.Here in the US, under the phony guise of 'private competition' among health care insurers, we have created a bloated, self-serving, parasitic bureacracy of health insurance companies that spends more money trying to shift repsonsibility for care to others by denying claims than it does actually paying for care.This overly-inflated cost of health insurance is one of the most negative economic factors nationally stifling job creation. If I want to hire someone (other than a student), even on temporary grant money, I need to come up with $1.33 for every $1.00 I will actually pay them, and 85% of that 33 cents is for their health benefits. So every time I write a grant proposal, I have to budget major money for paying these parasites. My own salary package puts *thousands* into their coffers every year (I am almost NEVER sick), but you can be sure if I ever need to see a doctor, instead of merely paying the doctor, they pay some nit-picking bureaucrat to go over the claim line by line to see what they can poosibly avoid paying. The conservatives in power will never allow this system to change because, guess what, far too many of them are heavily invested in the gold mine of 'managed care', something that should be called 'mis-managed care'.

I agree. Ask those 'complainers' if they would like to swap for the US system, I venture to say they would all say no if they have had any experience with it.I know of Can-US couples who moved back to Canada to lower-paying jobs simply because of health problems they couldn't afford to deal with in the US. My wife is American and I have built my career in the US, but we plan to retire in Canada. It's a MUCH better country to grow old in because it makes care of its own people a higher priority than police-forcing the world.

No, but your employer is. Health insurance premiums for employers have become a hidden tax on labor with no public benefits deriving from them, as you point out. Don't blame the doctors - its the greed of the health insurance companies trying to maximize profits. We have a 'medicine for profit' health care system.

My mother had breast cancer a few years back. After about two years of fighting the desiese the insurance company was thretening to drop my mom! Luckely she survived the cancer. But then the insurance company did not want to pay for her partial mastectomy claiming that it was "experimental surgery". It took months of calling them even getting threats from them that they would sue for the money.All this BS went down before they even coverd a dime.In the end she got to keep her insurance, and they did cover it all, but not without alot of stress. Can you imagine? A woman in a life and death struggle with cancer and the insurance company is nickle & dimeing her? What kind of absurdity is this?!

I'm gald you mentioned that failed attempt as I think it is without a doubt one of the Great Tragedies and really evil actions of recent US history.During the Clinton Health Care reform we had the first serious chance to really improve the US Health Care System since about the same plan was proposed by President Nixon.IMHO in both cases, the plan was defeated for purely political reasons, a party that did something like that for the American people would be so appreciated by the average voter that it's unlikely they would lose popularity or an election for fifty years.Newt Gingrich clearly saw that threat to the Republican Party and orchestrated what may have been the most successful propaganda effort in modern times to doom the Clinton Plan.But the struggle had NOTHING to do with Health Care. It had EVERYTHING to do with politics and raping the consumer.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That's for damn sure.
The ads they ran showing old people worried about 'government choosing their doctors for them' were all paid for by the private health insurance and pharmaceutical companies.And yet now old Newt is pals with Hilary, suggesting she would make a good presidential candidate in 2008.
Talk about a 'flip-flopper' ! Or maybe he has a covert agenda in believing the Democrats cannot win with a female candidate?

Anything to add to defend the consevative side of this conversation?

The toll for the Detroit-Windsor Tunnel is only US$3.50 .But seriously, if the thread gets beyond horror anecdotes, maybe I'll join in.I agree to some degree the current US system is broken.Now that your heart rate's returned to normal, that does not imply that adopting the Canadian system is the solution.Maybe more later...

But the Canadian system is clearly better than what we have, no?At least everyone is covered there, compared to people with insurance in the US struggling to pay for the basics.Do you think that these "horror stories" are uncommon or unusual or something?Remember what somebody posted...something about 75% of the people who applied for bankruptcy in the US did so because of huge medical expenses.

I think we should bear in mind that almost every developed country in the world has a system similar to Canada's. It isn't exactly a radical, untested idea.(Go ahead, try it. You'll like it. )

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Actually the only law, that I'm aware of, that keeps them from doing this is if it is a life/death situation and then legally they are required (I'm sure this does not get followed 100%) to take the patient to the CLOSEST hospital.....from then the hospital can transfer as soon as the patient is "stable" (relative term as well).

Hey Schraf,
Just a clarification:Of those who applied for bankruptcy because of medical expenses....~75% of those people had health insurance.

Don't worry, everyone will be joining the US very shortly. Starting next year in the Netherlands they will no longer have a socialized medical syste. They are replacing it with a mandatory HMO style program.They claim that it will result in lower prices, better care, and less waiting. I'm not sure what they were pointing to as their example case, as the US system is deplorable, but profits always win out. Indeed people are already being forewarned that they may have to change doctors and travel miles out of their way in order to appease the wishes of their insurance companies.Worse still, the EU as a whole is driving for greater privatization in all member states as well... and that would include medical. Socialist systems are being destroyed left and right not because they are not working, but from corporate entities and those benefitting from corporate entities who are controlling the the gov'ts.Pretty soon the line will not be that the US is the only nation without socialized healthcare, hahaha let's laugh at them, but that Canada is the only nation with a backward not for profit system that must suck because its socialized.{edited in}Ironically years ago the doctors I talked to here joked about the US's missed opportunity with the Clinton Healthcare program. Guess the joke was on the doctors instead. I suppose I would have looked like a genius now if I had said at the time that they'd soon learn the error of their ways and chuck their socialized system in favour of the US HMO model. At this point many doctors have been staging strikes, but it appears more to be about getting more money, than about really putting things back to rights.This message has been edited by holmes, 05-23-2005 12:14 PM

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Not sure if your tongue is in your cheek or not....I'm glad you think that Canada will be the last country on earth to abandon socialized medicine. I agree.No politician could get elected without at least paying lip service to socialized medicine. Elections have been won and lost on the issue.We've had our doctors' strikes too, but you'd be hard-pressed today to find a doctor who doesn't support the system. (Could it be that it's easier to squeeze money out of government than out of the patients?)Meanwhile, the pendulum swings. Most countries have swung from private to public. Some of them may be swinging back to private, but they can always swing back to public.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.