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Author Topic:   Death Penalty and Stanley Tookie Williams
bobbins
Member (Idle past 3614 days)
Posts: 122
From: Manchester, England
Joined: 06-23-2005


Message 91 of 166 (269445)
12-14-2005 8:36 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by coffee_addict
12-13-2005 11:39 PM


Re: Revenge
Apologies perhaps for being flippant.
I do not apologise for attacking the graphs themselves. OK you have no way of depicting the no. of executions against the homicide rates on a 1:1 rate, but to depict it so on a graphic is dishonest. There is an obvious correlation in that graph. But if you were to represent the figures more realistically then the correaltion and your conclusion quote "However, the fact that this data was taken over a period of 50 years should be enough to indicate that it is too good to be a coincidence." would be less than obvious, and not "too good". An increase of 5 executions lead to a decrease of 20% in capital crime is apparently what you are saying with the original graph. (100 homicides per million to 80 homicides per million, 0 to 5 executions over the same period 82ish to 84ish).
As for my questions with regard to data collection et al., they are legitimate and a government source is no indicator of reliability if the intention of the source is not known. An independent source would be preferable.
My point really was that graphics are a great way of representing dry data, thay are also the easiest way to misrepresent data, be it by scale, false comparison or even absolute numbers. The graphs were presented baldly, and your comments were perhaps ignored by me, but what struck me was the intention of the graphs, and they were if not dishonest, then misleading.
As for taking anything seriously, the death penalty is something I take(possibly too much) very seriously.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by coffee_addict, posted 12-13-2005 11:39 PM coffee_addict has replied

Replies to this message:
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wiseman45
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 166 (269461)
12-14-2005 8:49 PM


Clarification Statement
Sorry, maybe I wasn't as clear as I wanted to be:
I wasn't trying to suggest any new plans, I'm fully aware of the fact that these plans are already in place in several places across the nation. (I particularly like the Oklahoma State Pen. Policy of total lockdown, that's what I was trying to emulate.) However, I do believe that they need to be more strictly applied on a more national level. For instance: when a person is sentenced to death, and lets say the case was that they raped and murdered a woman and then killed her father who arrived unexpectedly on the scene to cover it up, but they left their own blood and the victim's blood all over the place...yada yada yada. (I won't get too detailed) This was collected and it was clear the perpetrator did it..case closed.
They get sentenced to death. However, what I am against is even for those who have massive evidence to suggest guilt, the condemned usually get an average of 10-15 years on Death Row because of appeals at the least. Why should the country have to pay for their care and such? Why, when its clearly a malicious psychopath we're dealing with here, do we have to go through dozens of automatic appeals when there is no evidence to suggest that person might in fact be innocent? For instance: Scott Peterson has about a 50-50 chance of spending at least half of the remainder of his life of Death Row before his execution date is even set. Why is that? Everyone knows he did it. Why do we mess around with worthless apeal cases? Just one example.
Furthermore, sure, without TV, prison would even be more of a living hell as you put it. Who cares? If its a semi-max or even maximum security facility, why should they get any priveleges whatsoever? A person who has life without perole did something really bad, in the vast majority of cases. They will never leave that prison. Good. If they killed someone either out of passion or greed or just because they're a sociopath, why do they deserve any priveleges, unless they prove that they can handle those priveleges?
And then you say that prisons are a living hell because of gang-rapes and murders. Where do all these things happen? In ungaurded cells or in the yard. Prison gangs shouldn't even be allowed to exist. If so many prisoner-prisoner crimes occur, lock 'em all up. Again, the Oklahoma State Pen, for example, has been on total lockdown since a series of jailbreak riots occured about a decade ago in which several gaurds were killed. Prisoners are allowed 1 hour per day of heavily secured yard time where there every action is watched by gaurds with shotguns. Otherwise, they're only allowed to come out if they have a very important visitor or if they have a prison job. That's it. The rest of the day, they're in their cells. And there's not been a single act of violence in years, of course, on prison grounds.
Here's a little tidbit of info:
In several prisons across the country, convicted felons are allowed to play violent video games on computers. May I ask who thought that was a good idea? How are they going to get reabilitated into society that way?
Generally, what I like to say is my belief is that if would-be violent felons criminals know, either through a PR campaign or some other means, or just through the grapevine, that if they assuault with a deadly weapon or kill or rape or do all three, they are going to a place where they are locked up in cages like animals for 23 hours a day, no freedoms except for those earned through extremely good behavior and display of willingness to be rehabilitated, yada yada yada, they won't commit as many crimes. Several criminals have lives that are worse than many prisons are today. So, they look at it as they don't lose much if they go to jail, and a reward might await them if they sucessfully commit their crime without being captured. If you make prisons the worst place in America, and I mean the worst, so that even a bum living on the street who gets beaten up every day wouldn't want to go there, do you think the crime rate will decrease? Of course.
And people ramble on about how prisoners are entitled to rights, yada yada yada, they're already too mistreated, uh-huh...goes on and on and on. IF you deliberately hurt someone for your own gain, should you be entitled to any rights? I certainly don't think so? Anyone who does can explain themselves to me, and I'll be around to listen: but, if don't agree with me, then present your own strategy for lowering crime in America.

Replies to this message:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 93 of 166 (269467)
12-14-2005 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by bobbins
12-14-2005 8:36 PM


Re: Revenge
There, isn't that nicer than bare insults?
So, what did Swaggart say when you prayed to him?

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 94 of 166 (269470)
12-14-2005 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by wiseman45
12-14-2005 8:49 PM


Re: Clarification Statement
For instance: Scott Peterson has about a 50-50 chance of spending at least half of the remainder of his life of Death Row before his execution date is even set. Why is that? Everyone knows he did it. Why do we mess around with worthless apeal cases? Just one example.
yeah see. there's this little problem in america called due process. i know, i know. it's a pain in the ass. i mean. no one would ever even get accused of something if we didn't know for sure they did it and juries are CERTAINLY never wrong. i don't even know why we bother to have trials. such a waste of money and no one wants to serve jury duty anyways.

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 95 of 166 (269511)
12-14-2005 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by Silent H
12-13-2005 8:26 AM


Re: doesn't make sense. He's dead.
Getting back to this:
Yes, or you can be that and be for capital punishment. If one believes that the loss of life is the worse thing which can be done/have happen to onesself, then execution is the strongest punishment.
If the existence of life is so precious that a brain dead woman needs to be kept on life support until the bones wither away,
If the existence of life is so precious that zygotes doomed to natural death (2/3rds of the time) must be kept alive,
Then the possibility on ONE life wrongfully convicted and wrongfully punished is also the loss of an equally valuable potentially innocent life. If not more so because it is a fully functioning life.
The fact that this occurs frequently should be more than enough reason for those that feel the others are precious. They should be arguing for life imprisonment, no questions asked.
Or be hypocrites on the issue of innocent life. That's my take.

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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 96 of 166 (269516)
12-14-2005 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by macaroniandcheese
12-14-2005 9:04 PM


The third alternative -- the 5 year review plan
Scott Peterson has about a 50-50 chance of spending at least half of the remainder of his life of Death Row before his execution date is even set.
yeah see. there's this little problem in america called due process.
This is where the beauty of the alternative mandatory 5 year review actually reduces the process: 5 years on death row then a mandatory full review by a panel of judges, if there is absolutely no new evidence and clear evidence of guilt, that's it, due process is over.
If there is any doubt on the handling of evidence or of bias in the trial, then you get another 5 years. Also if there is sufficient evidence of {redemption\remorse\rehabilitation} you can get a 5 year extension.
Thus you can err on the side of caution, and you can execute confirmed remorseless killers more expediantly than currently, while still providing due process.

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This message is a reply to:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 97 of 166 (269600)
12-15-2005 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by bobbins
12-14-2005 8:11 PM


Re: Revenge
My government does things I do not approve of, the invasion of Iraq being one. It is not my fault, nor any reflection on me that the current government has done the things that it has done.
That would be the same for capital punishment within the US. In fact, not all states have it or have it active at this time.
Execution is not a US issue, it is a state by state issue.
Surely on arrest the threat is already removed.
That is incorrect or they would not need incarceration, and protection of other prisoners and guards during incarceration.
Once you catch a wild, rabid animal does not mean the threat is over, it is merely contained and that only tentatively.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 98 of 166 (269601)
12-15-2005 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by RAZD
12-14-2005 10:43 PM


Re: doesn't make sense. He's dead.
Or be hypocrites on the issue of innocent life. That's my take.
I agree that for the extremists there are some issues of hypocrisy, though they might still be able to wriggle through if one does not assume there is always a chance an innocent person is going to be executed.
I have been forcefully arguing that execution can be operated so that error is not just minimized, but eliminated.
I do agree however, that any prolifer who is not for a stay of executions until rules have been tightened and cases rereviewed are being hypocritical. There is no question that at this point in time we do not have systems capable of removing the possibility of executing an innocent.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 99 of 166 (269602)
12-15-2005 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by macaroniandcheese
12-14-2005 3:04 PM


Re: My changed mind
the thing about imprisonment is that it is reversable. no, you can't give them their time back, but they can be compensated.
It is not reversable and it is not compensatable. How does one compute compensation for years of life lost, family and reputation devastated, and possibly you being dead?
By chance it may turn out that for some their innocence is discovered and so their suffering brought to an end. That is all.
very little prevents innocents from using the time productively... as a rather nasty sabbatical perhaps.
You just described what a torture it is, and now you compare it to a sabbatical?
You are vacillating.
i don't trust even a reformed system to be able to properly apply it. humans are flawed and exectution is too final.
Human flaws do not have to remain as a factor in a properly revised system. I don't trust allowing people to live who have without all practical doubt killed already and are interested in continuing that pattern.
I would not want to have to force another human being to stand guard over that person so that I would not have to face them myself.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-14-2005 3:04 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-15-2005 9:19 AM Silent H has replied

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 100 of 166 (269609)
12-15-2005 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Silent H
12-15-2005 8:17 AM


Re: My changed mind
no you know what. you're right. what am i thinking. kill them all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Silent H, posted 12-15-2005 8:17 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Silent H, posted 12-15-2005 10:23 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 101 of 166 (269614)
12-15-2005 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by wiseman45
12-14-2005 8:49 PM


Re: Clarification Statement
wiseman45 writes:
For instance: Scott Peterson has about a 50-50 chance of spending at least half of the remainder of his life of Death Row before his execution date is even set. Why is that? Everyone knows he did it. Why do we mess around with worthless apeal cases? Just one example.
Ok, I have to disagree with you here. The Scott Peterson case does not even fit your own criteria of an example for when the death penalty would be appropriate. In message 76 you said:
wiseman45 writes:
3. Death Row candidates can only be convicted on solid evidence, where its clear that they did it because they left their fingerprints or DNA at the crime scene or on a weapon.
and in the Peterson case, I'm not so sure that this criterion was met.
Personally, I agree with you (and the jury for that matter) that Scott Peterson did indeed murder his wife. But...and this is a big “but”...there is still a chance that he truly is innocent and it did happen the way his defense team claimed. So, by my standards (see message 80), life imprisonment without parole would be the maximum punishment in his case.

This message is a reply to:
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wiseman45
Inactive Member


Message 102 of 166 (269615)
12-15-2005 9:57 AM


Good point
Yes, I suppose I did contradict myself there, didn't I?
"3. Death Row candidates can only be convicted on solid evidence, where its clear that they did it because they left their fingerprints or DNA at the crime scene or on a weapon."
I think that Scott Peterson probably is going to serve life without parole anyway--they're never going to execute him. How many people has California executed since it reinstated the death penalty? About 12, it seems? How many people are on San Quentin's death row...about 600?
No, I'm pretty convinced he will probably die of natural causes before he gets the "needle." I suppose that's a proper term.
This message has been edited by wiseman45, 12-15-2005 09:59 AM

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 103 of 166 (269622)
12-15-2005 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by macaroniandcheese
12-15-2005 9:19 AM


Re: My changed mind
you're right. what am i thinking. kill them all.
How could you say I'm right and then end with kill them all? I didn't say kill them all.
Unless by them you are referring to a small and specified group which are a subset of those that have killed others?
Black and White thinking isn't very useful.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-15-2005 9:19 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 104 of 166 (269627)
12-15-2005 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Silent H
12-15-2005 10:23 AM


Re: My changed mind
about as useful as this discussion.

This message is a reply to:
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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 105 of 166 (269735)
12-15-2005 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by macaroniandcheese
12-14-2005 3:11 PM


Re: payback is a bitch.
Hi Brennakimi,
brennakimi writes:
Forgivness is a bitch too.
Many people find it next to impossible to forgive the senseless murder,rape or torture of a member of they're family. Some say they can. But I would venture it is so much pious Christian feelgood speak . When you are the one who has lost someone to a murdering bastard and find it in your heart to forgive; then bravo for you. I prefer to know the mother fucker died for what he did. I am not as virtuous as you.
brennakimi writes:
Im glad texas doesnt represent god.
Well it depends on which version you care to worship. The God of the old testiment fire and brimstone/kill kill em all God.
Or the New testiment, kinder gentler God of forgiveness.
Or perhaps your a pantheist and god is manifested in all creation, in that case Texas is the vengence is mine sliver of gods personality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by macaroniandcheese, posted 12-14-2005 3:11 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
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