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Author Topic:   Congress goes off the deep end
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 126 (353970)
10-03-2006 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by New Cat's Eye
10-03-2006 4:57 PM


quote:
They seem to be idealists. Also, a lot of them are whiny pussies.
Heh. Where I'm from, that pretty much describes conservatives.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-03-2006 4:57 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 126 (353971)
10-03-2006 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Silent H
10-03-2006 4:43 PM


Re: Calling all Republicans to explain what's going on.
So if congress passes a law against gun ownership you will be for it?
Maybe not, but I wouldn't post on a forum calling to Democrats to explain why Congress passed it.
I'm looking beyond the politics, at the underlying rights being lost and their relation to core principles.
If your looking past the politics then why did you call out to the Republicans?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Silent H, posted 10-03-2006 4:43 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Silent H, posted 10-03-2006 6:27 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5871 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 48 of 126 (353973)
10-03-2006 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by jar
10-02-2006 8:50 PM


Re: liberal distortion as usual
Sorry but I am a conservative Republican and I say warrantless searches are an abomination. The current Republican Party is not Conservative but Reactionary approaching fascist.
Hear hear! I think I'm going to open a coffee house topic on this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by jar, posted 10-02-2006 8:50 PM jar has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 49 of 126 (353987)
10-03-2006 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by New Cat's Eye
10-03-2006 5:00 PM


Re: Calling all Republicans to explain what's going on.
If your looking past the politics then why did you call out to the Republicans?
Uh... correct me if I am wrong, but the request for such a measure was by a republican president, and the measure (even if slightly weakened) was written and passed predominately by republicans.
That's why I am asking republicans. If the dems had passed this I would be asking them, though they'd have less overtly conflicting principles to discuss.
I am looking past the politics regarding its effects.

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-03-2006 5:00 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2006 10:03 AM Silent H has replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 50 of 126 (354067)
10-04-2006 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by New Cat's Eye
10-03-2006 3:57 PM


Re: Calling all Republicans to explain what's going on.
I don't know. My explanation involved maintaining a positive image while also doing things that would be deemed 'bad'. Like, they don't want to have to tell everyone when they're putting some dishonest wiretaps on terrorists. I don't care if they do but I can understand them wanting to hide it. We have to keep the good guys image.
Holy...holy shit. My eyes must be deceiving me.
So, in other words, in order to maintain the moral high ground, one does not actually have to have it, but only the illusion that one has it? It's okey-dokey to do dishonest, illegal or otherwise "bad" things as long as you are able to hide it? Wow. Just wow.
As for the rest of your post, this is the only other thing I feel the need to reply to:
Again, I don't know. Congress passed it. I don't know what reasons they had for passing it but I trust their judgement. Isn't that why they are in congress, to make these decisions?
They are in office in order to serve the people and to be our voices in the government. How in the hell can they be our voices or even pretend that they are serving in our interests if they do not have to answer to us or explain their rationale? They are not our parents. They are us.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-03-2006 3:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2006 10:14 AM Jaderis has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 126 (354110)
10-04-2006 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by Silent H
10-03-2006 6:27 PM


lets get to the effect
I am looking past the politics regarding its effects.
Well then lets get to the effects. What effects are you thinking of?
Abuse of power? I covered that, unreplied, in Message 24.
How it is gonna affect you, or me?
I don't think its going to affect me very much at all.
A lot of people bitch about the Patriot act, and rightly so, but it hasn't had any impact on my day-to-day life. Same goes for this one I presume.
What effects?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Silent H, posted 10-03-2006 6:27 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Silent H, posted 10-04-2006 10:48 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 99 by tsig, posted 10-06-2006 5:04 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 126 (354112)
10-04-2006 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Jaderis
10-04-2006 1:42 AM


Re: Calling all Republicans to explain what's going on.
So, in other words, in order to maintain the moral high ground, one does not actually have to have it, but only the illusion that one has it?
I've noticed that replies that begin with 'in other words...' or 'so you're telling me...' are misrepresenting you.
I don't think a discussion about what consitiutes maintining the moral high ground is on topic.
It's okey-dokey to do dishonest, illegal or otherwise "bad" things as long as you are able to hide it? Wow. Just wow.
Absolutely. We are fighting terrorists. People who will blow themselves up to take out a bunch of innocent civilians. Fuck them. If we have to torture a terrorist to learn the location of a hidden bomb, then torture away. But, we should not go public about the torturing we do. We should keep it hidden to mainain the 'good guys' image.
The public doesn't need to know about everything that the government does, especially the bad (morally wrong) things that must be done to protect ourselves. If we need a secret wire tap to find key information and this legislation will enable it, then I feel it makes the legislation less bad. Now, I'm not totally for it, it does seem a little extreme, but I can imagine how it could be useful in a positive way.
How in the hell can they be our voices or even pretend that they are serving in our interests if they do not have to answer to us or explain their rationale?
Well, if they actually are serving our interest, the rationale is less important. Like I typed above, I don't think we need to know about every little thing they are doing. Its about the big picture.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Jaderis, posted 10-04-2006 1:42 AM Jaderis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Chiroptera, posted 10-04-2006 10:46 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 55 by Silent H, posted 10-04-2006 11:02 AM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 64 by Jaderis, posted 10-04-2006 2:55 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 71 by nator, posted 10-04-2006 9:24 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 126 (354121)
10-04-2006 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2006 10:14 AM


Re: Calling all Republicans to explain what's going on.
quote:
If we have to torture a terrorist to learn the location of a hidden bomb, then torture away.
Torture is never used to learn the location of a hidden bomb. The numbers of times in all of history where hidden bombs were located by the use of torture can be counted on one hand.
Torture has always been a message that those in power send to the powerless to remind them of the actual power relationships.
-
quote:
But, we should not go public about the torturing we do. We should keep it hidden to mainain the 'good guys' image.
Because Democracy cannot survive if we have an informed public.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2006 10:14 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 54 of 126 (354122)
10-04-2006 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2006 10:03 AM


Re: lets get to the effect
What effects are you thinking of?
I thought I had already mentioned some. Let me try again.
1) Removes traditional powers from judiciary.
2) Hands separate traditional powers of judiciary to executive and undetermined minority group within the legislative branches.
3) On top of the above, which is a problematic move in its own right (consolidation of power), the powers given are not clear, removing transparency and sureness in use of power.
4) Once given, the ability of the executive branch to conduct operations which are against civil rights, beyond means of the populace to check.
You have not addressed any of these issues as far as I can tell.
I don't think its going to affect me very much at all.
It overtly removes a balance of power within gov't. The longterm consequences are more important than immediate ones. Under the new system, and precedent, the Congress may effect the Constitution (rights and powers) by partyline majority votes rather than amendments. The judiciary becomes a slave organ of the exec and legislative branches.
Under the new powers given a corrupt executive branch will have extensive means to gather information on enemies and prosecute them.
I don't think its going to affect me very much at all.
We have a history of gov't corruption and misuse of extended powers. I'm not sure how your incredulity is supposed to wash that away. If it happened in the past, and the FBI and CIA admit such excesses have occured, why am I to believe it cannot happen again?
There is a reason we have a judiciary which oversees investigations and checks them for valid access to personal information and communication.
People have a right not to have that done. That the executive branch claims it won't do anything bad, and it might help is not enough. It doesn't matter if it's the nicest people in the world running the program, they don't have the right to do so, and every citizen has a right not to have it enacted on them.
A lot of people bitch about the Patriot act
This isn't about the Patriot Act. This is about what the executive and legislative branches have done in order to gain warrantless wiretapping powers.

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2006 10:03 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2006 11:16 AM Silent H has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 55 of 126 (354129)
10-04-2006 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by New Cat's Eye
10-04-2006 10:14 AM


Re: Calling all Republicans to explain what's going on.
If we have to torture a terrorist to learn the location of a hidden bomb, then torture away. But, we should not go public about the torturing we do. We should keep it hidden to mainain the 'good guys' image.
Hussein tried to do this and we said that showed how horrible he was. That his gov't was a nontransparent system trying to hide its abuses.
Remember Bush said that. It is not about what you look like, but what you do. Transparency is important in this.
The public doesn't need to know about everything that the government does, especially the bad (morally wrong) things that must be done to protect ourselves.
A person might not be a terrorist and might not know the location of a bomb. We've had at least two documented cases of people wrongfully tortured by the US gov't since 9/11. Once released they do tend to talk.
What are we supposed to do about them? Kill them to maintain our image?
I might add that you have yet to explain why removing human rights are necessary (must be done) to protect us. You have suggested they might be useful, though not any more so than anything else we could do without removing rights.
Besides which once we remove rights we are removing actual protections. That's what we're supposed to be fighting for.
I believe the quote was "give me liberty or give me death", not "give me protection even if it kills me".
Edited by holmes, : better

holmes {in temp decloak from lurker mode}
"What a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away." (D.Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2006 10:14 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2006 11:18 AM Silent H has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 126 (354134)
10-04-2006 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by crashfrog
10-03-2006 9:53 AM


I don't speak type for Republicans, but everyone defends their party by smearing their opponents.
I see a lot less of that from the Democratic party.
I only saw one smear campaign commercial during the highlights of the (awesome) Cardinals game last night. Guess what, it was paid for by the Republicans.
I just though I'd say "You told me so".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by crashfrog, posted 10-03-2006 9:53 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 126 (354136)
10-04-2006 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by Silent H
10-04-2006 10:48 AM


Re: lets get to the effect
1) Removes traditional powers from judiciary.
2) Hands separate traditional powers of judiciary to executive and undetermined minority group within the legislative branches.
3) On top of the above, which is a problematic move in its own right (consolidation of power), the powers given are not clear, removing transparency and sureness in use of power.
I guess I was talking about actual effects we will see on the people. This just outlines what the legislation does.
4) Once given, the ability of the executive branch to conduct operations which are against civil rights, beyond means of the populace to check.
That's what I was talking about. I really don't think that is going to affect me. Actually, I don't give a shit if they listen to my phone calls. They'd probably be bored to tears.
That its a violation of my rights and that they don't really have a right to do it is basically the argument, yeah?
The longterm consequences are more important than immediate ones.
What consequesnces do you expect?
Under the new powers given a corrupt executive branch will have extensive means to gather information on enemies and prosecute them.
Won't they have that even if they aren't corrupt?
We have a history of gov't corruption and misuse of extended powers. I'm not sure how your incredulity is supposed to wash that away. If it happened in the past, and the FBI and CIA admit such excesses have occured, why am I to believe it cannot happen again?
It can happen again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Silent H, posted 10-04-2006 10:48 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Silent H, posted 10-04-2006 12:30 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 72 by nator, posted 10-04-2006 9:32 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 58 of 126 (354139)
10-04-2006 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Silent H
10-04-2006 11:02 AM


Re: Calling all Republicans to explain what's going on.
Transparency is important in this.
I fine opinion that I might only disagree with in the level of importance.
What are we supposed to do about them? Kill them to maintain our image?
I don't know how to solve that problem, but I wouldn't want them killed.
I might add that you have yet to explain why removing human rights are necessary (must be done) to protect us.
I don't plan on it either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Silent H, posted 10-04-2006 11:02 AM Silent H has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 59 of 126 (354148)
10-04-2006 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by New Cat's Eye
10-03-2006 4:57 PM


I gave it a quick look and didn't find anything.
Reagan described that phrase as "the most terrifying words in the English language."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-03-2006 4:57 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-04-2006 12:09 PM crashfrog has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 60 of 126 (354150)
10-04-2006 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by crashfrog
10-04-2006 11:49 AM


Reagan described that phrase as "the most terrifying words in the English language."
Well I found a Reagan quotes page with it on there.
quote:
"The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
I haven't seen the quote in context. You think this quote means that conservatives should distrust the government?
I thought I'd go OT for a sec and post some other quotes from Reagan form that page that I thought you would disagree with, and maybe not put so much weight in Reagan's quotes, not that I have a problem with them.
quote:
"If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."
"I have wondered at times about what the Ten Commandment's would have looked like if Moses had run them through the U.S. Congress."
“While America’s military strength is important, let me add here that I’ve always maintained that the struggle now going on for the world will never be decided by bombs or rockets, by armies or military might. The real crisis we face today is a spiritual one; at root, it is a test of moral will and faith.”
And finally,
quote:
"The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant: It's just that they know so much that isn't so."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by crashfrog, posted 10-04-2006 11:49 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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