Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
6 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The legalization of drugs
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 16 of 111 (363274)
11-11-2006 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taz
11-11-2006 4:46 PM


It also means you can have a use tax - like alcohol and cigarettes - that pays for programs instead of having a tax drain of prison and lost productivity.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Taz, posted 11-11-2006 4:46 PM Taz has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 17 of 111 (363275)
11-11-2006 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Brian
11-11-2006 5:18 PM


denial

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Brian, posted 11-11-2006 5:18 PM Brian has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 18 of 111 (363277)
11-11-2006 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Taz
11-11-2006 5:00 PM


Re: Propose Pilot Pot Program Perhaps?
quote:
I have been struggling with my chocolate adiction for as long as I could remember. I'm sure that there are many others who share the same struggle.
Just give in, man.
Don't struggle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Taz, posted 11-11-2006 5:00 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Chiroptera, posted 11-11-2006 6:32 PM nator has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 111 (363278)
11-11-2006 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by nator
11-11-2006 6:31 PM


Re: Propose Pilot Pot Program Perhaps?
Resistance is futile.

Kings were put to death long before 21 January 1793. But regicides of earlier times and their followers were interested in attacking the person, not the principle, of the king. They wanted another king, and that was all. It never occurred to them that the throne could remain empty forever. -- Albert Camus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by nator, posted 11-11-2006 6:31 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by RAZD, posted 11-11-2006 7:08 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
BMG
Member (Idle past 209 days)
Posts: 357
From: Southwestern U.S.
Joined: 03-16-2006


Message 20 of 111 (363279)
11-11-2006 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by RAZD
11-11-2006 4:38 PM


Re: Propose Pilot Pot Program Perhaps?
Why not a pilot program with one drug to judge the effect?
Marijuana
I agree. Have felt adamently so for a while now.
Here's just a quick piece with regards to medicinal marijuana that piqued my interest and I couldn't refrain from posting. Marijuana (also known as Cannabis, Ma, or Ganja) | Drug Policy Facts
The piece is from Francis Young, former DEA's Administrative Law Judge, 1988. I know...a little way's back. And no, this is not a jest at you or other posters' who probably believe 1988 was not "a little way's back".
In strict medical terms marijuana is far safer than many foods we commonly consume. For example, eating 10 raw potatoes can result in a toxic response. By comparison, it is physically impossible to eat enough marijuana to induce death. Marijuana in its natural form is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man. By any measure of rational analysis marijuana can be safely used within the supervised routine of medical care.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by RAZD, posted 11-11-2006 4:38 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by RAZD, posted 11-11-2006 7:11 PM BMG has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 21 of 111 (363280)
11-11-2006 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Jon
11-11-2006 5:13 PM


Tobacco wars
How many times do you hear of people getting kild over "alcohol wars" or "tobacco wars" on the street? Any vodka cartels that you know of? I can't think of any.
I don't know how things are in the States, but here in the UK several drugs are controlled and taxed by the government. Those legal drugs include tobacco and alcohol. Because they are taxed, there still exists a black market for untaxed drugs which are cheaper for the consumer. People inevitably get killed as a result of this.
Example
The difference is at the local businessman level. As it stands, there are no legal protections for the salesman of the illegal drugs. His business concerns are managed purely through market agreements of price and patch etc. If a well funded competitor was to break market agreements and start undercutting another's business - the salesman under attack cannot complain to the monopolies commission. The only recourse is by legislating themselves in a 'black judiciary' of vendettas.
Such things spiral out of control and we get the street level violence we are aware of.
If drugs were legal, there would still be a booming black market trade, just like with alcohol and tobacco now - but it will pale into insignificance in comparison to the legitimate trade and the original black market trade.
And of course - the taxes from the legitimate business can be put into increasing funds for cracking down on the black market to make sure that the business is a risky one to be in as a potential deterrent for those considering making quick and easy money (though as with the example above, large legitimate businesses are often involved directly in their black market equivalent).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Jon, posted 11-11-2006 5:13 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 11-12-2006 12:16 AM Modulous has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 22 of 111 (363283)
11-11-2006 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Chiroptera
11-11-2006 6:32 PM


Re: Propose Pilot CHOCOLATE Program Perhaps?
the only question is whether you have gone over to the dark side ...
Edited by RAZD, : title

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Chiroptera, posted 11-11-2006 6:32 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 23 of 111 (363284)
11-11-2006 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by BMG
11-11-2006 6:45 PM


Re: Propose Pilot Pot Program Perhaps?
To say nothing of aspect discussed on the Brain Growth Stimulant?

Join the effort to unravel {AIDS/HIV} {Protenes} and {Cancer} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by BMG, posted 11-11-2006 6:45 PM BMG has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 111 (363289)
11-11-2006 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by nwr
11-11-2006 5:27 PM


Re: The drug problem
We have the prison system we are willing to pay for. If you want a better prison system, then you have to be willing to pay far more per prisoner than we currently spend.
Paying corrections officers a decent wage would help considerably. They are finally starting to pay these people what they are worth. I don't know about other states, but Oregon corrections are upwards of 25-30 an hour starting, which is pretty good in this state. In New York or California that might not be very much.
quote:
But hard drugs are awful. Legalizing them will not make less addicts, it will make more of them and exacerbate the problem.
Typical right wing thinking. But this kind of thinking does not explain the reduction in nicotine use.
The reduction in tobacco use is attributed to campaign awareness. And the typical left wing thinking is coddle the criminals and turn the victim into the victimizer.
It is not at all obvious that decriminalizing drugs will exacerbate the problem. Right now one of the problems is that the easiest way for a drug addict to pay for his drugs, is that he get into the drug pushing business himself. Our drug laws force up drug prices, and increase the profitability for drug pushing.
You'd still have the same exact problem in Jar's scenario. People without any addiction to drugs would claim as though they do and sell it to those who are addicts. Unless of course you think the government is going to supply the same individual with an unending amount of drugs for use.
Have you paid attention to how the U.S. government fights drugs? It coerces countries like Columbia to adopt policies that would be clearly unconstitutional in the U.S.
First of all, the Constitution only applies to the United States, not Columbia. Secondly, if the Colombian gov't didn't want to play along, they wouldn't.
As long as we value freedom from government coercion, drug pushers will find ways of doing business.
That's right, they will always find a way to adapt. Except this time, on top of their still being violence attributed to drugs, on top of it, the taxpayers would subsidize all of its own problems.

"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2nd Corinthians 10:4-5

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by nwr, posted 11-11-2006 5:27 PM nwr has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 11-11-2006 9:18 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 27 by nwr, posted 11-11-2006 9:27 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 111 (363294)
11-11-2006 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Hyroglyphx
11-11-2006 9:08 PM


Well, jar's position has not been posted yet.
People without any addiction to drugs would claim as though they do and sell it to those who are addicts.
How do you sell drugs to someone who can get them for free from the local clinic? What incentive is there to pay for something that is available free?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2006 9:08 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2006 9:27 PM jar has replied
 Message 34 by Silent H, posted 11-12-2006 8:25 AM jar has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 111 (363298)
11-11-2006 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
11-11-2006 9:18 PM


Re: Well, jar's position has not been posted yet.
How do you sell drugs to someone who can get them for free from the local clinic? What incentive is there to pay for something that is available free?
As I already stated, when the actual users run out of their supply, the people claiming to do drugs will have a surplus. If anyone knows anything about addiction its that tolerance builds and it takes more and more drugs to produce the same fix. The people acting as though they do drugs will have an adundance and sell that to the actual users. As we already know, a true junky will do anything for a fix. You haven't eliminated the black market, you just feed it tax dollars and have it fester.
Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : No reason given.

"The weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God." -2nd Corinthians 10:4-5

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 11-11-2006 9:18 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 11-11-2006 9:31 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 70 by tsig, posted 11-12-2006 11:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6408
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 27 of 111 (363299)
11-11-2006 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Hyroglyphx
11-11-2006 9:08 PM


Re: The drug problem
The reduction in tobacco use is attributed to campaign awareness.
Decriminalization of drugs should be accompanied by a comparable awareness campaign. But it needs to be honest. Scare tactics will backfire.
And the typical left wing thinking is coddle the criminals and turn the victim into the victimizer.
That's typical right wing criticism of the left, but probably not correct. In any case, I don't count myself as left wing. I'm a pragmatist. What we have been doing has been an abject failure. As a pragmatist, I favor trying something different.
You'd still have the same exact problem in Jar's scenario.
I haven't seen jar's scenario. I have only seen your summary, but there is a good chance you missed important details.
First of all, the Constitution only applies to the United States, not Columbia.
Sure, just like the constitutional prohibition on torture applies only in the US. So we use "extraordinary rendition" and torture them overseas. It is disgusting. I have contempt for our government when it does that, and I have contempt when it coerces Colombia or other countries to do what would be unconstitutional here. And now you seem to be saying that, as an evangelical Christian, you are every bit as unprincipled as those who do extraordinary rendition.
Secondly, if the Colombian gov't didn't want to play along, they wouldn't.
Sure. just like Saddam didn't want to play along, so he didn't.
Except this time, on top of their still being violence attributed to drugs, on top of it, the taxpayers would subsidize all of its own problems.
Is anybody proposing subsidy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2006 9:08 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 111 (363300)
11-11-2006 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Hyroglyphx
11-11-2006 9:27 PM


Re: Well, jar's position has not been posted yet.
As I already stated, when the actual users run out of their supply, the people claiming to do drugs will have a surplus. If anyone knows anything about addiction its that tolerance builds and it takes more and more drugs to produce the same fix. The people acting as though they do drugs will have an adundance and sell that to the actual users. As we already know, a true junky will do anything for a fix. You haven't eliminated the black market, you just feed it tax dollars and have it fester.
Just how does this happen? All that anyone needs to do is stop by the neighborhood clinic to get whatever they want.
Sorry but your idea is just silly. Another strawman.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2006 9:27 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by riVeRraT, posted 11-14-2006 10:27 PM jar has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 29 of 111 (363314)
11-11-2006 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Hyroglyphx
11-11-2006 5:21 PM


Re: Law enforcement
nj writes:
So, from a future law enforcement officer, I'd say that you fight battles only worth while and make a friend of the community whenever possible.
Thanks for the advice
But I have to wonder. Why can't I just shoot all of them in the head, plant a gun on their hands, and declare it was self defense?
Just joking.

Place yourself on the map at http://www.frappr.com/evc
The thread about this map can be found here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Hyroglyphx, posted 11-11-2006 5:21 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 111 (363320)
11-12-2006 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Modulous
11-11-2006 6:52 PM


Re: Tobacco wars
Well, I don't know. I don't think many people in the U.S. like their whiskey so much that they'll buy it off the black market...
Hopefully we can get an opinion from an American wino... you got this one's opinion already
J0N

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Modulous, posted 11-11-2006 6:52 PM Modulous has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024