Read anything by God or Darwin lately?

Here is where I differ from a lot of Atheists. My take on it is the following. There is no conceivable way that there could be evidence for the existence of a god. There is not now, never has been and, unless there is a complete change in how reality exists, never will be any evidence for the supernatural. It is all myths and legends and that is all it can be.Edited by Theodoric, : attempt to improve sentence structure

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Get her an email account and a default pic and bring her into the debate, she seems to have more logical sense than most creationists here. I have 2 daughters, girls are great, huh? Very intelligent and quite the skeptics, too. They're a bit older than yours, 10 & 12, but trust their instincts, they're smarter than adults give'em credit for.- Oni

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

I think this is where my atheism is as well.I doubt anything more than subjective experiences will ever lead people to believe in god(s). It is a myth, as are all imagined ideas about supernatural forces at work in nature, there is still some mystery but history shows us exactly what happens to these mysteries, eventually.With that being said though, I don't think there will ever be a shortage of people willing to believe those myths. Religion, faith(in god/s), belief in the supernatural, etc, will, IMO, always be around in some form.- Oni

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"I smoke pot. If this bothers anyone, I suggest you look around at the world in which we live and shut your mouth."--Bill Hicks"I never knew there was another option other than to question everything"--Noam Chomsky

My son and daughter are 22 and 20 now, but beginning when they were young I was determined that they would have a good, positive exposure to Christian religion because I saw it as a important part of American culture. We attended services at a Congregational Church and the kids went to Sunday school every week. If they became believers it was alright by me, and I kept my own religious beliefs to myself.The plan fell apart quickly. In short order they were telling us that they didn't believe anything they were being taught in Sunday school, and that they didn't want to go anymore. I finally gave in, but only on condition that we do Bible study at home on Sunday mornings. We did this for about year before I gave up. They just weren't buying any of it. We'd have long discussions where I would take the religious point of view, but after a while they became dismissive, saying things like, "We know you don't believe that, Dad."I think some non-believers are just born that way.--Percy

My daughters (27, 24, 21) had a similar upbringing. On their own they became agnostic deists.Edited by bluescat48, : sp

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There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

Thanks Percy, I totally understand your point of view, even though my daughter is not quite there yet (challenging my beliefs). If my daughter remains a Christian or becomes an agnostic/atheist, I would have no problem with it. I love her no matter what.It is rather ironic, I even take her Awanas (a Christian kid's club) on Sunday nights and attend church more than my wife (she has Multiple Schlerosis). I am not going to lie to my daughter, but will shround my disbelief and skeptism as long as possible so as not to upset her mother. Due to my wife's medical condition and my constant being away on deployments and other naval excursions, I do not fault her faith in God at all. I just have a harder time with the whole moral hypocricy and inconsistencies both in modern religion and in the stories of the Bible. That along with the lack of scientific and historical evidence and innumerous inconsistencies is a little too much of a hurtle for my rational mind to continue to swallow.Thanks for sharing. It helps Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Sad but true Yes they are. Always have to be careful what you say around them. They pick up more than you know.She is a chatterbox but I love her. Kids are one of the greatest joys in life. No matter what a crappy day I had at work, when she comes running up and throws her arms around me when I get home it makes everyingthing else seem small in comparison. Hope everyone gets a chance to experience this.Have a good night all

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Oh, that's interesting, I didn't know you were in the Navy. My son joined a couple years ago, he's in Okinawa right now.--Percy

Yep, sure am, 16 years now. Cool, I haven't been to Okinawa but have pulled into Yokosuka in Japan during a Westpac once. What rate is he?

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

I don't know what rate he is, but he hasn't even reached his 2-year anniversary yet. He originally started in the seals but had to leave after a minor injury, but he's been reaccepted back into the program and will probably resume back in San Diego around fall. He made it to about the 8th week last time, evidently hell week or whatever they call it where you don't sleep for a week isn't as early in the program as it used to be, so he still hasn't experienced that, I'm not sure he knows what he's getting into yet.--Percy

Hell week is usually towards the middle of BUDS training. SEALS is a pretty intense job/career. They are the tip of the spear in our defense as demonstrated by the SEAL snipers on the USS Brainbridge that took out the pirates off the coast of Somalia. Wish him the best in his Navy career.

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For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

Not me. Not cover-to-cover, that's for sure. I know all the stories though, OT and NT. But I couldn't quote a passage to save my life. Without getting into specifics, I'd dump myself into the atheist/"evolutionist" area. No, I don't consider it important. But I'm not here to debate either evolution or creationism or religion in general. If that was what I was here for, then I would think it would be more important. I'm here to learn if what I think (and how I think it) is rational, defendable and reasonable. Or even if such a goal is something to strive for in the first place.I tend to stay away from the main evolution vs. creationism topics. Things like Bible Study, Biological Evolution, Dates and Dating, Origin of Life... aren't really "my forums." I do read them to learn what I can and I find the knowledge interesting on a "the more you know" kind of level, but I rarely poke my posting nose in because, well, I don't really care To me, the non-debate is so overwhelmingly obvious that to argue over it is just... boring (to me personally, no offense to those who enjoy such things). I must admit though, the threads can get interesting on an entertainment level when newbies come in and "blow away the competition with their new-found knowledge."I like the Faith & Belief or Social Issues or Miscellaneous Topic forums the best. I like to discuss things leaning towards the epistomological (is that the word?) level:
-Why do people think the way they do?
-What "other ideas" do people have and why do they think they are valid?
-Are the ideas that I think about valid?
-Is there even a dependable (or best possible) scale of validity to use?
-How can something be so "obviously true" to one person and not to others?
-Is the verifiability of information really that important?
-Is internal consistency important?
-Can our strong feelings for certain areas of information make it impossible for us to see internal inconsistencies?
-Is religion really the only or best way to achieve the generally-claimed benefits (inner peace/comfort/safety, afterlife, happiness, personal-betterment)?
-Do the people who claim to know absolute truth about things actually know anything about those things?Questioning people about such things isn't exactly polite conversation in day-to-day activities. Most people don't appreciate having their thought-process questioned, they like to assume that such things are perfect perhaps? Whatever the reason, this is a nice place where I can be mostly-sure that such questioning can be expected, or at least should be.Those are the kinds of questions that focus me towards the topics I find most interesting. And they do not really rely on a knowledge of the Bible or Darwin's book or any text... it's more of an internal, personal quest for "knowing oneself."

I've read both, cover to cover.The Origin is a worthwhile read for anyone; full of fascinating biology and a powerful introduction to the argument for Evolution. It is, however, somewhat kludgy and turgid by modern standards and outdated in technical detail.The Bible, on the other hand, contains precious little of interest. Is a depressingly tedious book that borders on the incoherent and of little use in understanding Christianity as their religion - despite what fundies protest - is only tangentially related to anything the Bible says, especially the teachings of Jesus. There's a few gems in there, to be fair, but they're hardly worth digging out.

I'm currently reading Darwin. I'm just starting to study evolution and figured it would be a good place to start. I'm finding it cumbersome, and still have 300 pages left to go. It's a good thing natural selection can be summed up nicely by others in half a page, so I knew the basic theory before going into "the Origin of Species".Over the years, I have read the Bible cover-to-cover once, the entire New Testament a second time, and have skipped around and read parts quite a bit.

I have read the Bible cover to cover in my teen years and again when I was around 20. My basic synopsis:Genesis is quite interesting in a thematic way. The creation story isn't that good, but the flood and the stories of Abraham, Joseph and Jacob. They have a tactile "life in the ancient desert" feel. Especially good if you reading it with other Mesopotamian literature.The next four books are mind crushingly boring, Exodus is a big let down.Then next few prophet books are just dull.The books concerning the Kings are very interesting because they're legendary rather than mythical in that they're probably based on some nugget of fact. They tell you a lot about what Israel thought of itself. Plus the language they use is so rich with idioms.The Proverbs and Psalms books are just silly nonsense, "stay away from scary men!", e.t.c. There are a few good poems, but they're probably best analyzed independently.The later prophet books like Hosea are some of the most random and crazy things I've ever read. By the end you wouldn't be surprised if cowboys and cyborg-Moses appeared.The New Testament is just to "nice" or neutral or something. Acts are quite interesting in a pseudo-historical way. Paul is a weirdo. Finally Revelations is too difficult to read, you'd probably need to be an expert in first century symbolism.Darwin I haven't read, for the same reason I never read Newton's Principia. You can learn it better with modern books, I'd read them only for historical interest.