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Author Topic:   On this day, let us all be proud of America
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 271 of 280 (499368)
02-18-2009 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by New Cat's Eye
02-18-2009 12:45 PM


What are you implying this time
People have abused food stamps and other benefits. This is no big news flash. What is the implication you are trying to make?
Or are you "just saying"
Have some backbone would you and come out and say what your point is.
You may not like my sarcasm in mocking your argument, but there is no need to resort to name calling. That has no place in this discourse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 12:45 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 1:27 PM Theodoric has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 272 of 280 (499370)
02-18-2009 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by kuresu
02-18-2009 12:09 PM


Re: treasury view
I stand corrected. Amazing how deep they can put their heads in the sand.
Reality means nothing. Dogma is everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by kuresu, posted 02-18-2009 12:09 PM kuresu has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 273 of 280 (499375)
02-18-2009 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 269 by New Cat's Eye
02-18-2009 12:45 PM


Once recovery.gov is fully up and running, we should be able to find out just how much money has been included for food stamps. This is what wiki has to say on it:
American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 - Wikipedia
20.25 billion total for all food program assistance, with food stamps receiving 19.9 billion. RR's $250 figure assumes 79,600,000 people/families will be on the government's roll call. So I don't think each entity will be getting one $250 coupon. I do not know how much they plan to increase each coupon, or rather the total benefits by.
That said, as it is money for food stamps, the only things that can be purchased with the stamps are what I posted earlier. Naturally, that doesn't preclude people from trading their stamps for real cash, although the card you mentioned (the coupons themselves are being phased out I believe) is supposed to reduce/eliminate such fraud. But if you bought that stamp from its intended receiver, are you not going to try and spend it or sell it to someone else? Eventually that coupon will be spent, or someone is willing to take a loss on it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 12:45 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 1:35 PM kuresu has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 274 of 280 (499381)
02-18-2009 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 271 by Theodoric
02-18-2009 12:57 PM


Re: What are you implying this time
From Message 270
quote:
If you spent it on drugs, prostitutes, and gambling, then it wouldn't make back into the economy, would it?
  —Catholic Scientist
Why do you assume that I am assuming that?
I even put that "just sayin'" in there so you'd know that I was just answering your question and nothing more.
Ther is no other way to read what you said.
Really!? Wow. Try reading what I actually wrote instead of what you want me to have written. You're just vilifying your opponent by putting words into their mouths so you can have something to argue against. Its called trolling.
In Message 263 you asked:
quote:
I just heard as part of the stimulus, they are going to be giving $250 checks to people on food stamps. Makes wonder just what they will spend the money on. If it will actually make it back into our economy.
Where the hell else is it going to go?
You seemed to be unable to think of a way to spend money here in the states without it making its way back into the economy. I was just offering examples that would do that. I wasn't implying anything about anything else. All that you invented and ascribed to me. Its dishonest and shameful.
As for the whole economy bit, I still don't understand your reasoning.
What do you think RR meant by "making it back into our economy"?
Of course you could argue that every dollor is technically a part of the economy, but that doesn't have anything to do with what RR was questioning.
Maybe these endeavors do not pay taxes, but the obviously contribute to the economy
How does buying crack off of a street corner in East St. Louis contribute to the economy?
From Message 271:
People have abused food stamps and other benefits. This is no big news flash. What is the implication you are trying to make?
Nothing. There is no implication. It was just a funny thing that I was mentioning.
Or are you "just saying"
Yeah, pretty much.
Have some backbone would you and come out and say what your point is.
Not everything has to have a point. I can weave simple point-less comments into my posts for plenty of reasons.
You may not like my sarcasm in mocking your argument, but there is no need to resort to name calling. That has no place in this discourse.
If all you want to do is troll, then I guess I'll feed you for a bit.
If you're going to be an asshole, then I'm gonna call you an asshole.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Theodoric, posted 02-18-2009 12:57 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Theodoric, posted 02-18-2009 1:47 PM New Cat's Eye has replied
 Message 277 by kuresu, posted 02-18-2009 1:54 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 275 of 280 (499384)
02-18-2009 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 273 by kuresu
02-18-2009 1:06 PM


That said, as it is money for food stamps, the only things that can be purchased with the stamps are what I posted earlier.
So, RR was wrong and its not just a $250 check that people will be getting (like cash).
But if you bought that stamp from its intended receiver, are you not going to try and spend it or sell it to someone else? Eventually that coupon will be spent, or someone is willing to take a loss on it.
Oh sure, the way it was presented was that I was going to be spending my money of food anyways, so why not give them the money and use the stamp.
But if you're going to give people cash, then don't you agree that it won't necessarily make it back into the economy because if people spend the cash on things like drugs and prostitutes* then that is not going back into the economy. Or am I wrong? What about saving the money instead of spending it? That doesn't make it back into the economy, does it?
*for those who can't help but ascribe implications as they read, you could change 'spending it on drugs and prostitutes' to 'letting it sit in a savings account'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by kuresu, posted 02-18-2009 1:06 PM kuresu has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by kuresu, posted 02-18-2009 2:04 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 276 of 280 (499390)
02-18-2009 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by New Cat's Eye
02-18-2009 1:27 PM


Re: What are you implying this time
Damn even more personal attacks.
You seemed to be unable to think of a way to spend money here in the states without it making its way back into the economy. I was just offering examples that would do that. I wasn't implying anything about anything else. All that you invented and ascribed to me. Its dishonest and shameful.
I gave you definitions of THE ECONOMY. Spending whether legal or illegal contributes to the economy. That was the point I was trying to make with RiverRat. I don't care what your interpretation of what he meant is( and isn't it up to him to tell us what he meant), the point is he was wrong. I merely pointed it out.
You then jump in with a point that they could spend it on "drugs, prostitutes and gambling". Again, wrong. This would contribute to THE ECONOMY.
You continue to say this is not true but offer nothing to back it up except personal attacks. How does spending on these things not contribute to THE ECONOMY?
How does buying crack off of a street corner in East St. Louis contribute to the economy?
Because crack dealers and their customers are part of THE ECONOMY. Not a part we like, but they are still a part of THE ECONOMY. You keep implying poor people and people on food stamps tend to spend more of their money on illegal things, but continue to deny you make any implication. Also, you do not provide any evidence except personal anecdotes. I think maybe you don't understand what the word means.
Imply - to indicate or suggest without being explicitly stated
If you are not making an implication, then your catty comments are doing nothing further the debate.
And again enough with the name calling. I am sick of it and will not stand for it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 1:27 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 3:17 PM Theodoric has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 277 of 280 (499394)
02-18-2009 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by New Cat's Eye
02-18-2009 1:27 PM


Re: What are you implying this time
How does buying crack off of a street corner in East St. Louis contribute to the economy?
Do you mean to imply the crack dealer just sits on his money?
So long as money is spent, money is in the economy. Velocity of money, remember? If I'm a crack dealer, I need to buy more crack when stock is low. Since I'm running a profit (or else I'm an inefficient crack dealer and should go under and find something else to do), I won't be spending my money solely on crack requisition. I'll use it to expand my operations. Which means I now hire other people, creating jobs. Or I can use it for personal expenses, which means I'm buying stuff that other people produce and sell. Which means my expenditures are keeping other people employed. Which really is why spending is one way out of recessions and depressions. When people don't spend money the economy collapses.
Long story short:unless that crack dealer sits on his money, the money you spend buying crack will enter into the economy, because it is an economic transaction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 1:27 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 278 of 280 (499400)
02-18-2009 2:04 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by New Cat's Eye
02-18-2009 1:35 PM


*for those who can't help but ascribe implications as they read, you could change 'spending it on drugs and prostitutes' to 'letting it sit in a savings account'
In normal times, the two would indeed be interchangeable. That's because the bank, which is holding your money, is spending that money. In the form of giving out loans. Loans which then prime economic development (financing home purchases, car purchases, new factories, new stores, etc).
Obviously, these aren't normal times. So a better replacement would be
"spending money on drugs and prostitutes" or "spending money on food at the grocery store".
The only difference is that one transaction is illegit (generally) and one is almost always legit.
So, how is buying drugs or prostitutes different from buying food at your local farmer's market?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-18-2009 1:35 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 279 of 280 (499426)
02-18-2009 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by Theodoric
02-18-2009 1:47 PM


Re: What are you implying this time
Damn even more personal attacks.
You reap what you sow.
You then jump in with a point that they could spend it on "drugs, prostitutes and gambling". Again, wrong. This would contribute to THE ECONOMY.
Okay, so every dollar that is spent on anything contributes to the economy. You could certainly argue that against RR's question of wondering if the money will make it back into the economy but it fails to acknowledge the distinction that RR has made between money that simple contributes to the economy because it is a dollar spent and money that makes it back into the economy and actually helps stimulate it in a positive direction (which is what I think he was getting at).
How does spending on these things not contribute to THE ECONOMY?
Its that the money doesn't make it back into the economy, as in it is removed from the equation and doesn't help stimulate it in a positive direction.
If the money is just cycled around locally I don't see how it could help stimulate the whole economy.
If you are not making an implication, then your catty comments are doing nothing further the debate.
Not exactly. If someone asks a question, then it could be answered without actually furthering the debate while not doing 'nothing' to further it. Also, not every single thing that you type has to further the debate. There's a place for catty comments too.
And again enough with the name calling. I am sick of it and will not stand for it.
Oh, boo-fucking-hoo. Go cry me a river.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Theodoric, posted 02-18-2009 1:47 PM Theodoric has not replied

AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 280 of 280 (499427)
02-18-2009 3:24 PM


Proud of America
I think this thread has served its purpose now.
If anybody would like to have a civilized debate about the contribution of the black market to the economy or about the wisdom of giving cheques to the poor - propose a new topic.
The fork I have stuck in this thread just now assures me that it is done and will be closed in a matter of minutes.

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