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Author Topic:   What do you think? (Re: animated child pornography)
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 16 of 31 (91648)
03-10-2004 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by 1.61803
03-10-2004 4:47 PM


Thanks for keeping this discussion pretty even-tempered. I realize it is a very volatile subject for people on both sides of this issue... and in my case, a guy in the middle trying to sort out the difference between the two.
quote:
I do not agree though that the legalization of the content we are discussing would not reflect acceptance of pedophillic behavior of people seeking sexual stimulation by viewing children participate in sexual acts.
Legality is tolerance and NOT acceptance. That distinction is at the heart of many cases regarding freedom of the press as well as for civil rights.
For example when the SC recently overturned sodomy laws as unconstitutional it was not a statement that gay sex was or should be viewed as acceptable to society at large nor was it an endorsement by the government.
The beauty (IMO) of the United States government, as envisioned by its founders, was a nation where the government kept its hands off the culture. It is society itself which must determine what it wants, unrestrained by the demands of any majority.
Thus the case you make should be made in the public sector of your church, your family, your neighborhood, or websites like this. Where it rightly stops is at your neighbor's yard.
The only time COMMUNICATION or PERSONAL ACTIONS are allowed to be limited is when they present something more than an offense to public sentiment (unless one is in public of course).
Without this distinction Protestants can wipe out Catholics because to not do so is to advocate Catholicism. Xians can wipe out Jews, because otherwise it is to advocate Judaism. Capitalists can wipe out Communists because otherwise.... whoops, see that already did happen. It was a witchhunt which like all witchhunts ended in theatres of the absurd and eventually tragedy.
quote:
I was unaware of the studys you have mentioned and will look into it only to satisfiy my own curiousity.
I have a link to some studies in one of the porn threads. I encourage you to look at them more than for curiosity's sake. This is an important issue and facts are imperative to temper emotions when figuring out how to handle the situation.
quote:
This is a very sensitive issue to me because of my Christian background I am not as insusient about pedophillia in any form.
This is not to be insulting or insensitive, but Xianity says NOTHING about pedophilia. You will not find one statement in the bible deriding sex between older and younger people, or between youths. In fact there are clear examples of what would be considered pedophilia according to current US standards within the Bible.
Ironically the strong version of the Child Protection Act would have labelled the Bible as childporn. Once again, Zero tolerance naturally leads to theatres of the absurd.
quote:
I am less likely to get alarmed if a 13 year old girl is married with parental consent than I would be for a middle aged man to commit henious acts with a 10 year old or younger victim.
Well you are not wrong in your feelings, or in stating them such as to deride middle aged men from doing so, as well as warning young people to beware of such situations. I would even go so far as agreeing with your assessment of the situation you outlined.
I guess I cannot go so far as to view as "heinous acts" ANY sexual contact just because it is an old man and a 10- younger person. The key element (to making it victimization) will be coercion, physical force, deception of the child and (IMO) the cultural beliefs/desires of the parents.
This translates to having the state give power to the individual youth AND the parents to fend off molesters, rapists, and killers.
But this is to digress into discussions of AOC laws, and not the use of material to fantasize about sexual encounters which might be counter to AOC.
I am uncertain, and would like to see an argument supported by evidence, why removing the rights of adults to manufacture or view literature in contravention to AOC laws, would have an impact on child molestation whatsoever?
quote:
I am no lawyer but if cutting the clitoris is legal in Africa and is cultrally acceptable I still feel the woman was exploited and harmed. Protitution is legal in Nevada, but that does not mean that some of those females are not exploited or harmed.
Heheheh... you just emphasized my point, instead of countering it. I said cultural taste regarding right and wrong are not adequate to define exploitation are harm. Well that includes what people think of as RIGHT just as much as wrong.
While society may view the forced removal of the clitoris as RIGHT, that does not mean there isn't a real physical and perhaps psychological harm from that procedure. It is actually pretty obvious that some amount of harm is part of this practice. The question then becomes how do you control this such that human freedom is maintained while protecting individuals from unwanted harm. In this case, since damage is permanent, perhaps laws could be made to ban clitorectomies until the age of majority... and be decided on by the individual.
Same goes for your prostitution example. I am a HUGE proponent for the legalization of prostitution. However I would be an IDIOT if I said that no prostitute was ever exploited. The interesting fact though, if you look into the evidence, is that in this case laws against prostitution actually do more harm and exacerbate exploitation. The real key is legalization with important regulations to protect the prostitutes.
quote:
But is it not a citizens responsibility to draw a line somewhere? Your thoughts?
You are exactly right. It is A CITIZEN'S responsibility to draw a line, and not the majority of citizen's responsibility to draw a line for the minorities, via legislation.
Is the majority to trap US culture in amber? That is the issue when we talk about the government having to make things illegal so as not to "accept" it. You are talking about not accepting the possibility of change, and removing that possibility through legal fiat. I think that is not really a good idea.
But let's move to less philosophical matters.
Let us say you have a child who, as all children do at some point when left alone with other children, plays "house" or "doctor" and ends up getting caught naked with another child in a sexual situation.
What used to happen, and still does outside the US, is the parents come in an scold the children, or talk to them to help guide their activities along the lines of their system of beliefs.
Under the zero tolerance policy you advocate, and the US currently employs, your child is a child molester (if (s)he instigated it) and can be sent to counseling or even juvie hall. You are robbed of the power to guide your child's development, and the state takes over, officially stamping your child a predator.
Does this sound like a function you wish the state to have over your family?
How about your child, playing around as children do, creates some sexual imagery or goes out and downloads some childporn, and worse still sends either to someone else. For some reason this imagery is found and reported to police.
Now on top of being labelled a sexual predator, your child is removed from your control by the state and labelled a child pornographer as well. By the way this has already happened to a child so it is quite possible it could happen to anyone.
Is zero tolerance making sense anymore? Or is it starting to look like the theatre of the absurd, and infringement on YOUR RIGHTS as a parent?
Worse still, being your computer, you could be prosecuted for possession of childporn that you never even new you had on your computer, much less tried to view. You would then be permanently labelled and tracked as a sexual predator.
This is also not a fantasy scenario. My lawyer is currently handling a case almost exactly like this.
Again, is this where you really believe citizen's should be drawing a line? Does zero tolerance (especially regarding possession) make sense when this is the result?
I would mention again that we have already seen the beginning of blackmailing schemes using zero tolerance laws, as childporn is installed through viruses or tampering with a computer while the victim is unaware. Since simple possession is enough to put a person away, it has become effective, even when it turns out no childporn was actually loaded on the computer.
Increasing technology is going to make all of these situations more and more common, not less so.
Does this give you reasons to rethink zero tolerance?

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by 1.61803, posted 03-10-2004 4:47 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by 1.61803, posted 03-10-2004 11:38 PM Silent H has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 17 of 31 (91686)
03-10-2004 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Silent H
03-10-2004 6:49 PM


Smoke and mirrors Holmes, your silver tounge can make even child pornography sound acceptable LOL. If you are not a lawyer you are missing your calling. I do not bye into your argument fully but can see the reason and logic behind your thoughts and agree on some points you have made. Especially concerning zero tolerance issues and draconian measures and blanket laws. Anytime these get passed freedom suffers. As far as legalizing prostitution, I am all for it; not because I am a consumer of it mind you but it is a victimless crime a women and her wares and a consumer with money. Capitalism at its best. It has always struck me as hypocritical of our Country that one state could legalize it and others not. Porn, I have absolutely no concerns or problems with "of age" consumers or participants. I can be naive and admit I am becoming more and more liberal as I get older..I will be turning 40 this year YIKES!! I appreciate your comments and time in answering my post. Even though I know you have a much more in depth grasp of this topic I think I envy your ability to intellectualize the subject. Kudos. It takes true courage to discuss an issue such as this in such candor. Or as we say here in Tejas "Cohones" I wish I could run across more folks like the ones on these boards I will consider this thread ajourned.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Silent H, posted 03-10-2004 6:49 PM Silent H has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 18 of 31 (91820)
03-11-2004 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Asgara
03-10-2004 11:08 AM


Asgara writes:
I'd be interested in seeing some statistics on violent games/viewing material and violence.
Violence study
Canadas violent crime rate (mainly gang related) is growing considerably and Great Britain in the last few years has had in incredible increase in violent crime as well. The US Criminal justice stats of 1999 state gun ownership in 1993 {51%} in 1997 42% and in 1999 (36%) there seems to be a reduction in the amount of home gun ownership and yet violent crime still prevades our country as well. I got the violent crime information from Canada by typing a search as well as for Great Britain, but my links wont work. The articles I read seemed to relay the fact that gun control is not a cure since Canada has very strict registration laws as does GB. I know this is off topic but I thought it polite to answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Asgara, posted 03-10-2004 11:08 AM Asgara has replied

Replies to this message:
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 19 of 31 (91823)
03-11-2004 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by 1.61803
03-11-2004 6:49 PM


thanks 1.6....can I call you 1.6? 1.61803 is so formal.

Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by 1.61803, posted 03-11-2004 6:49 PM 1.61803 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 20 of 31 (92751)
03-16-2004 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Loudmouth
03-09-2004 5:04 PM


therapy?
what about animated pornography as therepy?
If it was regulated (per another post) it could be set up to gradually move the more deviant behavior into more socially acceptable forms as the animated characters morph over time.
Someone starts out lusting for prepubescent girls and they become women?
an interesting thought. thanks for giving it to me.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Silent H, posted 03-17-2004 12:07 PM RAZD has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 21 of 31 (92916)
03-17-2004 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by RAZD
03-16-2004 11:47 AM


quote:
If it was regulated (per another post) it could be set up to gradually move the more deviant behavior into more socially acceptable forms as the animated characters morph over time.
While I thought loudmouth's suggestion was interesting, I have thought about yours for a bit and I just don't think it would work.
For example, could we "turn" gays toward more socially acceptable forms of sexuality by showing them cartoons where men turn into women?
I kind of think taste is taste. The more important use (as therapy) could be cathartic therapy, and learning not to confuse fantasy with reality... or more along the lines of helping them understand their fantasies should not come at the cost of someone else's reality.
Once taste or preference becomes obsession to the point of planning or acting out abductions, lines have been crosses beyond mere sexual preference.
[This message has been edited by holmes, 03-17-2004]

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by RAZD, posted 03-16-2004 11:47 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by RAZD, posted 03-17-2004 4:29 PM Silent H has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 22 of 31 (92956)
03-17-2004 4:29 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Silent H
03-17-2004 12:07 PM


to what degree?
I don't think you could turn a pedophile into a person that lusts after huge mammaries, but I do think you could grow the age parameters.
Another aspect would be to let the person control the morphing as a way to (perhaps) find core reasons for the attraction -- a sort of "who are you looking for" approach.
I agree that you cannot turn a homosexual into a het or vice versa (nor would you need to as long as it involves consenting adults), the question is if you can turn predatory behavior into consensual behavior.
(how ya doin?)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Silent H, posted 03-17-2004 12:07 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Silent H, posted 03-17-2004 5:17 PM RAZD has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 23 of 31 (92974)
03-17-2004 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by RAZD
03-17-2004 4:29 PM


quote:
Another aspect would be to... (perhaps) find core reasons for the attraction -- a sort of "who are you looking for" approach.
That sounds VERY interesting. I'd love to see studies along this line, though they may suffer from issues of people not "reporting" accurately, depending on the environment where such techniques are used.
quote:
the question is if you can turn predatory behavior into consensual behavior.
Heheheh... is pedophilia necessarily predatory and nonconsensual? In other posts within this thread I have pointed out that there is no such evidentiary connection.
Just because one desires sex with someone does not mean one is predisposed to rape or coercion, and with respect to pedophilia... depending on where you are living... such acts can not only be considered consensual, but acceptable.
Interestingly, homosexuality was considered a predatory sexual act by our society and the psychological community in specific up until recently. In fact I think it was classified in the same deviant category as pedophilia as late as the 60's.
This is of course why they had efforts to "convert" gays. Is there any reason to hope that such efforts againts pedophiles will fare differently?
quote:
(how ya doin?)
Fine? Not sure what this meant.
BTW, I like the avatar, though it starts driving me crazy after a while of staring at a page with a post of yours on it. Definitely the best animated one I've seen.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by RAZD, posted 03-17-2004 4:29 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 03-17-2004 8:10 PM Silent H has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 24 of 31 (93021)
03-17-2004 8:10 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Silent H
03-17-2004 5:17 PM


predatory avatar
As regards predatory behavior -- presumably the person is being [treated \ held] because of past behavior that was predatory by social definitions.
I agree with you that a person that is just a fantasy [thinker \ watcher] is no less [obnoxious \ bad ] than the average joe college student having fantasies about the latest incarnation of Pamela Anderson. I have no problem with "monosexualist" behavior.


Sorry if the animation annoys, I just love it -- it came in an e-mail with the line
"just dropped in to see what you were doing ....
[[ image looks over your desk and says ]
"you don't do squat!!"
If you use Netscape browser you can set activeX to cycle one time (this also takes care of all those incessantly flashing banners and such). This is much superior to the IE solutions.
As to the greeting, there is a [holmes5d] on another CvsE board and I assumed you were the same? if not you have a doppleganger for posting styles and concerns ...
Enjoy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Silent H, posted 03-17-2004 5:17 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Silent H, posted 03-18-2004 12:35 AM RAZD has replied

  
Traz
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 31 (93050)
03-17-2004 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Asgara
03-11-2004 7:02 PM


Heh..
Or you could just call him φ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Asgara, posted 03-11-2004 7:02 PM Asgara has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 26 of 31 (93057)
03-18-2004 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by RAZD
03-17-2004 8:10 PM


quote:
As to the greeting, there is a [holmes5d] on another CvsE board and I assumed you were the same? if not you have a doppleganger for posting styles and concerns ...
Uhoh. I have only posted here and a purely political board that is essentially defunct now. Can ya give me a link so I can take a look at this mirror me?
Spooky.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by RAZD, posted 03-17-2004 8:10 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 03-18-2004 1:18 AM Silent H has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 27 of 31 (93064)
03-18-2004 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Silent H
03-18-2004 12:35 AM


you have mail

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Silent H, posted 03-18-2004 12:35 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Silent H, posted 03-18-2004 1:08 PM RAZD has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 28 of 31 (93151)
03-18-2004 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by RAZD
03-18-2004 1:18 AM


Thankfully I have determined the guy isn't me, so I am not insane or something. I also see the ideological differences between us, though I admit his writing style is somewhat similar.
I suppose it is still eerie though.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by RAZD, posted 03-18-2004 1:18 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by RAZD, posted 03-18-2004 4:11 PM Silent H has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 29 of 31 (93184)
03-18-2004 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Silent H
03-18-2004 1:08 PM


JSYK holmes5d is a babe. It would be interesting to get you two together.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Silent H, posted 03-18-2004 1:08 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Silent H, posted 03-18-2004 6:07 PM RAZD has replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 30 of 31 (93210)
03-18-2004 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by RAZD
03-18-2004 4:11 PM


quote:
JSYK holmes5d is a babe. It would be interesting to get you two together.
Yes. yes it would. You wouldn't happen to know what she looks like? Heheheh...

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by RAZD, posted 03-18-2004 4:11 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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