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Author Topic:   All about Brad McFall II.
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 16 of 39 (409773)
07-11-2007 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
07-10-2007 10:59 AM


Re: All About Eccentricity
Mike, I also thought that Brad was clear and concise in his explanatory response to my queries...but...I don't believe that he owes anyone anything! Brad is just Brad and shall always be thus....
It is good to be able to get to know the man behind the curtain, however....and I am glad that we all are getting to share our observations about life and human development in general.
Mr. McFall.....one more question: Are you optimistic about the future of humanity?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 07-10-2007 10:59 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 07-11-2007 12:50 PM Phat has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 17 of 39 (409815)
07-11-2007 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
07-11-2007 7:35 AM


Re: All About Eccentricity
Mike, I also thought that Brad was clear and concise in his explanatory response to my queries...but...I don't believe that he owes anyone anything!
I agree. But then, for all we know he could have had a bet and lost, and ran away. So perhaps he does owe somebody something.
Mr. McFall.....one more question: Are you optimistic about the future of humanity?
Philosophat strikes again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 07-11-2007 7:35 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Brad McFall, posted 07-16-2007 7:51 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 18 of 39 (410598)
07-16-2007 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by mike the wiz
07-11-2007 12:50 PM


Re: All About EvC
Hi Mike,
I'll answer your other post later.
It may be that I have lost my bet. I just don't know yet.
Yet, I doubt that I have. Why? (gibberish...Pascal>Leibniz...)
I have simply wanted to know if it is possible to look at distributions of creatures on Earth in today's society as the ancients looked at the stars?
My website (Axiomatic Panbiogeography), according to an independent reviewer notes that this is only the second website on panbiogeography in existence. There I have placed my bets that one can use group theory to sort the differences among gene and species "trees". No one has told me that I lost this bet to a better thesis.
I may indeed owe my children something, but that is hard for me to say.
Thanks for mentioning Matchett, or however you spell his name. I'll respond to that later.
Indeed, I am optimistic about the future.
I did not "run" away, this past week, I just spent time doing normal things with family, i.e. nothing intellectual necessarily.
As for always being able to write clearly in precise conscription, that should always be the goal. Some of the unclarity comes while I am less confident, but tis true, those less clear posts ARE the ones I put the most thought into. If I do not put everything "out" there sometimes, I can not expect the same in response, when I call for it.
Sometimes, I want to drag the converstation into "metaphysics", sometimes... I just want to be understood.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by mike the wiz, posted 07-11-2007 12:50 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 07-16-2007 8:48 AM Brad McFall has replied
 Message 32 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2007 6:35 AM Brad McFall has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 19 of 39 (410599)
07-16-2007 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Taz
07-09-2007 2:26 AM


chat time
Taz, I tis back.
I am off work Tuesday. If you post a time today to talk tommarow, that too should come true.
Till then(or not),
Brad.
I will be in South Carolina for the duration of next week and it may be possible to talk then as well.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Taz, posted 07-09-2007 2:26 AM Taz has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 20 of 39 (410602)
07-16-2007 8:48 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Brad McFall
07-16-2007 7:51 AM


Re: All About EvC
McFall writes:
Sometimes, I want to drag the converstation into "metaphysics", sometimes... I just want to be understood.
Occasionally, I have the discipline to attempt to understand complex scientific disciplines that are way way over my head!
Is this an acceptable definition of Panbiogeography?
Answers.com writes:
Panbiogeography is an intricately related offshoot of biogeography. Biogeography is the study of how very similar organisms are distributed throughout a region, and panbiogeography studies how organisms came to be in a particular location. Panbiogeography figuratively “connects the dots” that biogeography makes.
Brad writes:
Indeed, I am optimistic about the future.
Thats what I wanted to hear! I try to be optimistic as well! None of that Armageddon belief system for me! We need more kids taking an interest in the pursuit of scientific disciplines such as the many that you lovingly embrace!
On a seemingly unrelated note, I have a question that you may provide some insight towards:
Of all the animals, why are humans the only animal that wears clothes?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Brad McFall, posted 07-16-2007 7:51 AM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by kuresu, posted 07-16-2007 1:51 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 22 by Taz, posted 07-16-2007 10:16 PM Phat has replied
 Message 28 by Brad McFall, posted 07-17-2007 9:19 AM Phat has not replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2512 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 21 of 39 (410651)
07-16-2007 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
07-16-2007 8:48 AM


Re: All About EvC
Of all the animals, why are humans the only animal that wears clothes?
Phat, what do you think a fur coat is? A better question to ask would be:
Why are humans the only ones that have to make their own clothing (as distinguished from growing their own clothing).
The reason we need to make clothing is because we like to go to places like antarctica (as an extreme). Well, some of us do. That skimpy amount of hair we have just doesn't cut it down there.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 07-16-2007 8:48 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Rrhain, posted 07-16-2007 11:13 PM kuresu has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 22 of 39 (410711)
07-16-2007 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
07-16-2007 8:48 AM


Re: All About EvC
Phat writes:
Of all the animals, why are humans the only animal that wears clothes?
The people who lived in the tropics wore their birthday suits all their lives before they were Europeanized.
Seriously, Phat, are you so desperate to prove that there is some godly purpose to us that you are willing to use obviously BS arguments? If everyone naturally feels ashamed of his body because of the fall, there shouldn't be a law in Hawaii forbidding women to go around topless.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 07-16-2007 8:48 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 07-16-2007 11:32 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 35 by Brad McFall, posted 09-08-2007 9:21 PM Taz has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 23 of 39 (410715)
07-16-2007 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by kuresu
07-16-2007 1:51 PM


Re: All About EvC
kuresu responds to Phat:
quote:
quote:
Of all the animals, why are humans the only animal that wears clothes?
Phat, what do you think a fur coat is? A better question to ask would be:
Why are humans the only ones that have to make their own clothing (as distinguished from growing their own clothing).
Neither of those statements are true. Other animals do wear clothing (hermit crabs) and make their own (there are some insects that glue things like rocks to themselves in order to protect themselves.)
There really isn't anything that humans do that other animals don't also do. We may do it differently, more efficiently, etc., but that doesn't make us unique.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by kuresu, posted 07-16-2007 1:51 PM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 07-17-2007 12:16 AM Rrhain has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 24 of 39 (410716)
07-16-2007 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Taz
07-16-2007 10:16 PM


Re: All About EvC
Taz writes:
Seriously, Phat, are you so desperate to prove that there is some godly purpose to us that you are willing to use obviously BS arguments?
My question was primarily directed at Mr. McFall, whose input I value. I was not necessarily implying any sort of a Godliness argument at all. I was merely wondering why humans are so unique from other animals.... Im not always a fundie, ya know!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Taz, posted 07-16-2007 10:16 PM Taz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Rrhain, posted 07-16-2007 11:53 PM Phat has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 25 of 39 (410718)
07-16-2007 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
07-16-2007 11:32 PM


Re: All About EvC
Phat writes:
quote:
I was merely wondering why humans are so unique from other animals
But we're not. There is nothing that humans do that other animals don't also do. While humans are unique (in that humans aren't some other type of animal), that uniqueness comes about due to degree, not kind.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 07-16-2007 11:32 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 39 (410723)
07-17-2007 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Rrhain
07-16-2007 11:13 PM


Re: All About EvC
Rrhain writes:
There really isn't anything that humans do that other animals don't also do. We may do it differently, more efficiently, etc., but that doesn't make us unique.
Welcome back, Rrhain! Nice to see your smiling logic once again.
So humans are not that unique, eh?
You must admit that we have accomplished many tasks that any ordinary animal could never do.
  • Internet
  • Engineering
  • medicine
  • buildings
  • writing
  • electronics

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by Rrhain, posted 07-16-2007 11:13 PM Rrhain has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 27 by Taz, posted 07-17-2007 12:28 AM Phat has not replied
     Message 29 by Rrhain, posted 07-17-2007 11:07 PM Phat has not replied

      
    Taz
    Member (Idle past 3291 days)
    Posts: 5069
    From: Zerus
    Joined: 07-18-2006


    Message 27 of 39 (410730)
    07-17-2007 12:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
    07-17-2007 12:16 AM


    Re: All About EvC
    Phat writes:
    You must admit that we have accomplished many tasks that any ordinary animal could never do.
    I don't know exactly what Rrhain was trying to say, but I can say this much. All of the things you pointed out are very human-centric in that other animal couldn't care less.
    A while ago, a christian fundamentalist tried to prove to me that the Jesus Christ was the true savior and that all other religious deities are false by pointing out that Jesus was the only one that resurrected from the dead... supposedly. I told him that resurrection was a christian criteria and not of a buddhist's. I could have easily pointed out that Buddha was the one true deity since he was the only one that was "enlightened".
    The same sort of argument is right here. You are using human criteria and then use things that are only essential for human to meet those criteria to prove our uniqueness.
    I could just as easily point out that the Argentine ants are the true unique species considering it is the only species in the world who's ALL individuals form a single colony. In other words, you could take an Argintine ant from Mexico and throw it in an Argentine ant nest in Italy and this ant would have been treated by the others as just another member of the colony.
    There, I just proved that the Argentine ant is god's true chosen.

    Disclaimer:
    Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
    He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 26 by Phat, posted 07-17-2007 12:16 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Brad McFall
    Member (Idle past 5032 days)
    Posts: 3428
    From: Ithaca,NY, USA
    Joined: 12-20-2001


    Message 28 of 39 (410776)
    07-17-2007 9:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
    07-16-2007 8:48 AM


    the baby, bath water, & clothes
    I have an interesting, though somewhat “whimsical” take on the clothes question I will answer later. I will try to explain how the zipper
    (see picture development here(see "crosscap final etc."))
    in
    quote:
    a . new proof,
    (PDF)
    quote:
    discovered by John H. Conway in about 1992, which retains
    the constructive nature of [5] while eliminating the irrelevancies of the standard
    form.
    forms for the surface of the human body what were clothed in the standard form, thus “disproving” that older saying that the emperor does not wear clothes.
    Sorry EvCers, there are so many responses I can not reply in real time to them all.
    I have read the answers.com result for searching under “panbiogeography”.
    I think the harderst thing about defining or bounding the domain that Panbiogeography (as an independent biological discipline) is that Leon Croizat wrote many books and papers, only one of which was titled, “Panbiogeography.” So Panbiogeography may refer to what is involved in the contents of that one book or as often happens when people not dedicated to the discipline itself, attempt to explain, it is referred to as, anything resulting from Croizat’s work that bears on geographic distributions.
    The book “Panbiogeography” deals with the distributions of animals and was written after he wrote one on plants. He then wrote a general book on plants and subsequently a work titled “Space, Time and Form”. That is as far as I have read his largest works. The rest of his life he concentrated on writing Spanish titles while composing some smaller papers for the English world. I suppose that is why Answers calls it “intricate”.
    It really is not all that. The truth is that no one had tried to create a discipline where geographic distribution was the first but not the last preoccupation of the biologist. I was particularly looking for such a whole discipline at Cornell and only found it in Croizat’s writings, yet no one knew much about his work there in Ithaca. The biophilosopher Hull has recognized Panbiogeography as a fourth “offshoot” among the triple of phlylogenetics, phenetics, and cladistics.
    The other two sentences in the Answers' answer will take a bit more effort to describe so I will do that also later. “Connect the dots” refers to the modernization of Croizat’s work, largely at first in New Zealand, where “minimal spanning trees” were applied to distributions. Croizat never invoked this specific algorithm by name. As for what biogeography is or was, that requires one to discuss Darwin vs Lamarck a bit.
    I would say that the Answers.com could have written a more positive entry.
    Edited by Brad McFall, : last sentence

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by Phat, posted 07-16-2007 8:48 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Rrhain
    Member
    Posts: 6351
    From: San Diego, CA, USA
    Joined: 05-03-2003


    Message 29 of 39 (410917)
    07-17-2007 11:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
    07-17-2007 12:16 AM


    Re: All About EvC
    Phat responds to me:
    quote:
    So humans are not that unique, eh?
    Nope. It seems that you glossed over the "degree, not kind" part of the argument, as you are about to get bogged down in details rather than concepts.
    quote:
    You must admit that we have accomplished many tasks that any ordinary animal could never do.
    And thus, you prove my point. You are confusing the specific outcome with the underlying process. By your logic, modern humans are unique compared to ancient humans since only modern humans made the Internet and if we could somehow transport ancient humanity to the present day and provide them with the same materials and training, they would never be able to do so.
    quote:
    Internet
    Actually, animals have communication networks. The dance of bees, for example.
    quote:
    Engineering
    Spiders, wasps, bees, termites, nesting birds, chimpanzees, orangutangs, etc.
    quote:
    medicine
    Bees and some apes.
    quote:
    buildings
    This is the same as "engineering," so the list is quite similar: Spiders, bees, wasps, termites, nesting birds, chimpanzees, orangutangs, etc.
    quote:
    writing
    Ants.
    quote:
    electronics
    Birds and insects follow electromagnetic fields as do sharks and some fish use electricity directly.
    Again, you're confusing degree with kind.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 26 by Phat, posted 07-17-2007 12:16 AM Phat has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 30 by Brad McFall, posted 07-19-2007 9:20 PM Rrhain has not replied
     Message 31 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2007 6:13 AM Rrhain has not replied

      
    Brad McFall
    Member (Idle past 5032 days)
    Posts: 3428
    From: Ithaca,NY, USA
    Joined: 12-20-2001


    Message 30 of 39 (411281)
    07-19-2007 9:20 PM
    Reply to: Message 29 by Rrhain
    07-17-2007 11:07 PM


    Re: All About Darwin,economics and uniqueness
    John Grehan has recently posted to SEBA
    http://www.sebasite.org/
    A copy of an early version of Croizat’s most cited paper. I have uploaded here
    http://aexion.org/product.aspx
    as
    /Documents/croizat1974ms.pdf
    For any one interested if answering “Are homologues parts of semaphorants or parts of holomorphs?”
    quote:
    /Documents/hierarchicalhomologyPDF.pdf
    This artilce by Nathanael Cao, Rene Zaragoeta Bagils, and Regine Vignes-Lebbe
    http://axiompanbiog.com/comparisons.aspx
    per main massing, it is very instructive to compare the paper as written by Croizat alone with that co-authored in 74.
    1974 paper
    Rhain, I can explain in detail how Darwin’s ideas as criticized by Croizat (Center of Origin, Active Migration, Means of Distribution, Essential Permanency of Continental Outlines) in the above PDF are a result of what improper economics Croizat named as a medieval involution. Gould can be read in this stew as well. He tries to keep the random jiggling back to worms of the Cambrian rather than settle the score with Croizat at the Jurrasic/Cretaceous.
    It is the apparent need of an evolutionary defense to NOT specify a specific history (Gould extended out to the longest time scales) so as to keep criticism at bay that prevents evos from turing the holomorph space into the form of a semaphorant bird Croizat lays at Mayrs essentialistic numberism.
    Sure this does not make much of “clear” response to you but then again you did not seem to relate what Phat was saying to anything I have said, so I just did.
    In the Croizat paper, he writes of "natural process" that Darwin got wrong in his opinion. It would take some doing to show that Kant's ideas of natural purpose can be drawn INTO the very process that is supposed by Darwin to overlay the entire example of plants and animals other than us but I could do that.
    Darwin had so...ooo unique (human in Phat's sense) a view that life is telling him, in his grave, that he was wrong. Instead Darwin (not Phat) brought in "miracle" instead. READ THE PDF for yourself. Croizat found out where improper creationist rethoric covered lack of scientific knowledge. Gould, however follows paying in kind under the table, and has subtly replaced "production of species" in the extremes of fans of Darwin's "diversity" for Croizat's "wing" disperal (this is why the obscure technical question about the concept holomorph vs the part of individual organism life cycle semaphorant is needed, sorry). Evolutionary biology is not a tolerant world even if it is like electrical engineering.
    Edited by Brad McFall, : forgot a link

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 29 by Rrhain, posted 07-17-2007 11:07 PM Rrhain has not replied

      
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