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Author Topic:   Where is the "leftist" media in the US?
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 116 (333166)
07-19-2006 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
07-18-2006 9:07 PM


Re: Bill Moyers on media bias
Faith writes:
quote:
Too bad leftists don't know how leftist they are, have to claim they're middle of the road.
This isn't just a misconception, it's a deliberate mal-conception. Those of us on the left realize we're on the left.
The difference in perceptions from the left and the right probably have to do with what actually is "middle of the road" at any given time. Since being able to claim the middle ground is rhetorically useful, both sides try to do it. Since each side tends to believe its own claim for the middle ground, that perception clouds a partisan's view of what should properly be called left or right.
The problem is compounded by the fact that the middle ground is constantly shifting. At the time this country was founded, the idea that the people and the press should be free to express any point of view at all, bar none, was radically left-wing. Just forty years ago, the idea that blacks and whites should be able to shop in the same stores and eat at the same restaurants without physical barriers placed between them was radically left-wing. Likewise, at about the same time, the idea that the military could survive without a draft was radically left-wing.
In the history of this country I think the middle ground has done a lot more shifting to the left than to the right, or at least the leftward shifts have become more deeply entrenched. That may be changing. Twenty-five years ago, the idea that the tax code should be reconfigured and the top marginal tax rates on the wealthiest Americans should be kept low was decidedly right-wing but is now mainstream. Opposition to abortion rights is more mainstream than it was a couple decades ago. Also, the right-wing idea of a legally infallible president with powers not subject to any oversight whatsoever is becoming (dangerously, in my view) mainstream.
All of this affects the way the press covers the news. If Americans are not concerned about the president grabbing too much power the "mainstream" press is going to begin covering his use of questionable powers in a matter-of-fact way rather than in an accusatory way. I think we see that happening now.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that we should give up trying to objectively decide whether the mainstream press is leftist or rightist. The best we can do is to recognize where we ourselves sit on the spectrum and try to take in as many points of view as we can. We should never, ever reject hearing (or reading) someone's opinion simply because we know that person's point of view is different from our own. If that's not closed-mindedness then what is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 07-18-2006 9:07 PM Faith has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 92 of 116 (333468)
07-19-2006 5:27 PM


bump for Faith
And now comes the time for me to repeatedly, yet pointlessly, ask Faith to provide examples illustrating the truth of her claims.
It happened here, in Message #88.

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 6:37 PM nator has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 93 of 116 (333483)
07-19-2006 6:20 PM


Didn't we already do this thread about a year ago? Back then it was called Far left - US/UK definition and was initailly discussing the British media, but the arguments, and many of the participants, seem well nigh indistinguishable.
TTFN,
WK

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 94 of 116 (333485)
07-19-2006 6:35 PM


Universities
While I didn't go to an "Ivy League" college or even Oxbridge I ave to say that I didn't see much sign of the far-left doing much. Most students didn't join the political clubs. Of those that did, the Conservatives were the largest group. It is true that the Conservatives often ran for office in the Guild as "Independants", but it is also true that the Conservative government was not that popular with students. On the other hand a motion to affiliate the Guild with CND failed because the supporters of the motion couldn't gather a quorum.
On that basis I have to say that the students represented a spectrum of political views, perhaps weighted to the left, but certainly not the far left who were a small minority, far outnumbered by the students to the right of centre.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 95 of 116 (333487)
07-19-2006 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by nator
07-19-2006 5:27 PM


Re: bump for Faith
I'd love to but it's a lot of work and really unnecessary. It's enough to inform you of what we righties believe is a leftie without having to justify our view of things. You'll just have some opinion or other about how it is or isn't leftie according to your own standards, and that won't make one iota of difference, because I know what I mean by it and will go on using it the way I do in any case. You can feel good about dismissing whatever I think, but I'll think it nevertheless, so what's the point? It's a Coffee House thread too you know.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by nator, posted 07-19-2006 5:27 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by RAZD, posted 07-19-2006 6:53 PM Faith has replied
 Message 98 by nator, posted 07-19-2006 7:23 PM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 96 of 116 (333492)
07-19-2006 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
07-19-2006 6:37 PM


Re: bump for Faith
I'd love to but it's a lot of work and really unnecessary.
So you don't really have any evidence and are just asserting that what you want to believe is true.
It's a Coffee House thread too you know.
You still have the matter of being honest with yourself.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 6:37 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 7:10 PM RAZD has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 97 of 116 (333498)
07-19-2006 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by RAZD
07-19-2006 6:53 PM


Re: bump for Faith
And I suppose you are able on demand to come up with dozens of examples to "evidence" your view of what is left, right and center?
My views are representative of the right wing in general. I spend a lot of time with them. I'm quite honest with myself about it. You are perhaps not being quite honest in making your demand.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by RAZD, posted 07-19-2006 6:53 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by berberry, posted 07-19-2006 7:25 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 100 by nator, posted 07-19-2006 7:32 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 101 by RAZD, posted 07-19-2006 7:48 PM Faith has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 98 of 116 (333500)
07-19-2006 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Faith
07-19-2006 6:37 PM


Re: bump for Faith
quote:
I'd love to but it's a lot of work and really unnecessary.
I think it is terribly necessary for several reasons.
First, I would hate to fail to utilize the help of someone as obviously informed as you are on this subject. Perhaps your examples will help me see that I have been so terribly blind to all these years.
You seem so utterly confident in your position that I was sure that you must have in your posession many such examples of leftist media bias.
quote:
It's enough to inform you of what we righties believe is a leftie without having to justify our view of things.
Er, it is most certainly required that you provide evidence for why you hold the views that you do if you want to be taken at all seriously. If you don't, then I will be forced to believe that you cannot support your position with any evidence.
If so I will be forced to continue suspecting that you are simply a partisan zealot that is merely shooting her mouth off about something she doesn't know anything about, can't support, and believes blindly because it makes her feel righteous.
quote:
You'll just have some opinion or other about how it is or isn't leftie according to your own standards, and that won't make one iota of difference, because I know what I mean by it and will go on using it the way I do in any case.
Well, that's why I asked about how you judge if something is "left" or "right".
I asked, and you didn't answer, the following question:
So, does this mean that you call "leftist" any media or, say, government entity that advocates strong central governement influence on the activities of American citizens?
Care to now?
quote:
You can feel good about dismissing whatever I think,
I wouldn't have asked if I was simply going to dismiss it, Faith.
I don't dismiss arguments before a person even makes them.
Remember, I'm not like you.
Edited by schrafinator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 6:37 PM Faith has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 116 (333501)
07-19-2006 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
07-19-2006 7:10 PM


Re: bump for Faith
Faith writes RAZD:
quote:
And I suppose you are able on demand to come up with dozens of examples to "evidence" your view of what is left, right and center?
If I had made an assertion that the NBC news group had a habit of covering the news from a right-wing perspective and you had challenged me on it, I might do something like link to the MSNBC homepage and draw your attention to the headline (at the top, just to the right of the photo) which reads "House Votes To Protect Pledge". I would say that a headline like that obviously demonstrates a right-wing bias in that it assumes that the pledge of allegiance requires protection, which is a long-standing right-wing talking point.
So that wasn't hard to do at all. If the news sources you complain about are really as leftist as you claim, why is it so difficult and time-consuming to cite an example or two?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 7:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 100 of 116 (333507)
07-19-2006 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
07-19-2006 7:10 PM


Re: bump for Faith
quote:
And I suppose you are able on demand to come up with dozens of examples to "evidence" your view of what is left, right and center?
I didn't ask for dozens, my chronically hyperbolic friend.
"Several" would be plenty.
Oh, and yes, I actually can, on demand, come up with several examples of the sort you mention. It's not difficult at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 7:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 101 of 116 (333514)
07-19-2006 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
07-19-2006 7:10 PM


honesty with self
And I suppose you are able on demand to come up with dozens of examples to "evidence" your view of what is left, right and center?
Your assertion was that the media was {leftist\liberal}, so lets stick to the assertion and not equivocate on it.
When I make an assertion I generally back it up with facts. Like I did on Botch lying to you, like I did on marriage and homosexuality traditions in many historical cultures, and like I have on other threads when responding to you.
But you are the one who made the assertion here, not me. That makes it incumbent on you to at least have ONE (1) piece of evidence for your assertion -- if for no other reason than to be honest with yourself.
There is evidence that the media is NOT leftist the way it is portrayed by the rightist extremists.
Part of that evidence is in Bill Moyers response to this attack on his program -- the evidence that you won't read because it makes you uncomfortable.
My views are representative of the right wing in general. I spend a lot of time with them.
I agree that they are representative. That doesn't make them {right\correct\true\valid}, just common. Having them does not pertain to honesty per se either, that has more to do with ensuring that you have the facts correct, not just whatever you are comfortable with.
I'm quite honest with myself...
So you keep telling yourself, so that you can feel comfortable when shutting out information that makes you uncomfortable -- like the evidence in Bill Moyer's response. Like the evidence that the Botch Administration lies to you. Like the evidence for cultural traditions that include homosexual relations down through history and in all cultures, no different from cultural traditions that include heterosexual relations. When you exclude one set of facts to feel comfortable with what's left you are not being honest with yourself.
The evidence for honesty with yourself is not in what you accept, what you believe, what you spend time with every day, but in what you deny, what you shut out, what you exclude from consideration, in order to feel comfortable with your beliefs -- the evidence that challenges and contradicts your views.
True honesty looks at those things that DON'T fit your particular {world view} and if it cannot explain them in the context of that {world view} then must question whether that {world view} is in error.
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 7:10 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 8:12 PM RAZD has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 102 of 116 (333520)
07-19-2006 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by RAZD
07-19-2006 7:48 PM


Re: honesty with self
What a bunch of priggish moralistic self-righteous self-congratulatory holier-than-thou bullying. Good grief.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by RAZD, posted 07-19-2006 7:48 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by RAZD, posted 07-19-2006 8:25 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 104 by nator, posted 07-19-2006 9:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 103 of 116 (333525)
07-19-2006 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
07-19-2006 8:12 PM


Re: honesty with self
So, have you read Bill Moyer's response to claims of liberal bias yet or are you still in denial?

Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 8:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 104 of 116 (333551)
07-19-2006 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
07-19-2006 8:12 PM


Re: honesty with self
quote:
What a bunch of priggish moralistic self-righteous self-congratulatory holier-than-thou bullying.
Asking you to support your assertions with a SINGLE piece of evidence is "bullying"?
Poor, poor Faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 07-19-2006 8:12 PM Faith has not replied

  
U can call me Cookie
Member (Idle past 4953 days)
Posts: 228
From: jo'burg, RSA
Joined: 11-15-2005


Message 105 of 116 (333665)
07-20-2006 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Faith
07-18-2006 2:50 PM


Re: On Faith's allegations.
"Leftist" is how we rightists identify liberals of all degrees, because we know they got their orientation from the Marxist left through the universities, which are dominated by the 60s generation.
But we do all know that the leftists are forged in the leftist universities.
Do we now?
If i'm honest with myself, when i look at me, i tend to see a strong liberal, who's a bit left of centre (No, Faith Leftist does not equal Liberal, as has been mentioned).
Strangely enough, i've eschewed any political discourse on offer at my university (with its quite vocal socialist movement, among others), prefering to keep my politics private.
How can this be though!? Surely I must have been indoctrinated into my leftist thinking by the evil red army; if your words are anything to go by.
Face it, Faith, no matter how broad your strokes, you can't paint the world black and white.
Maybe us leftist liberals have actually taken a hard look at the world and don't like what we see. And if that's a form of indoctrination then so be it.

"The good Christian should beware the mathematician and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of hell." - St. Augustine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 07-18-2006 2:50 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-20-2006 3:07 PM U can call me Cookie has not replied

  
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