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Author Topic:   Let me Introduce Myself
Wolf
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 22 (228789)
08-02-2005 10:46 AM


Hello all...
Here is a bit of my beliefs and background.
I first became very interested in this subject after watching the Passion of Christ movie. I started to look up info on that topic alone and discovered that Christ might not have even existed. I have read a few books that showed a very different interpretation of the Bible. One was Biblical Religion the Great Lie and forgot the name of the other book, but it showed how the stories in the bible were around before the bible or very similar.
My take on creation if it did happen I do not believe in the biblical account of it. My feeling is the bible was the history of a people that thought their God helped them and justified their actions. Just like many other civilizations God(s) helped or punished them.
There is no doubt in my mind that evolution has taken place and there is a lot we know and do not know at this time.
I have read Evolutionist verse Creationist, What Evolution Is, A basic book on Genetics, the Third Chimpanzee and am currently reading In the Blink of an Eye. I have about 12 to 15 more books in the line up on my bookshelf. An have read a lot of talk orgins articles.
I have some questions in regards to evolution, geology, cosmology and creation.
I am not a total Atheist but am leaning more towards it as I learn more and more about the world and universe around me.
The only reason I am not a total atheist right now is I am not to keen on understanding the Big Bang. Where did all matter come from. How did matter come into existence in the first place? If there is a deity out there I think there are a lot of experiments in different solar systems. I honestly think that with the number of Galaxies in existance other life is probably out there. Other Life, does not necessarily mean more intelligent or more advanced than us.
So that is a bit about me and my position on the debate.
I forgot to add that when I was younger, mid teens to about 22 I was Christian, then I lost faith and studied Wicca for about 6 years. I never truly ever felt a deity in either one. I was never touch like others say they have been. Even now since becoming more and more convinced that there is no God, I have asked Jesus to show me that I am being lead down the wrong path. No answers have come to me; my prayers have gone unanswered. What am I to think? I thought Jesus would do anything to recover a lost sheep... So far I have wondered very very far from the pasture... my shepard is no where to be found!
This message has been edited by Wolf, 08-02-2005 09:29 AM

"A Dwarf on a Giants Shoulder sees the Furthest or the Two!"

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Tal, posted 08-02-2005 11:17 AM Wolf has not replied
 Message 3 by AdminJar, posted 08-02-2005 11:46 AM Wolf has not replied
 Message 4 by Sylas, posted 08-03-2005 4:40 AM Wolf has replied
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 08-03-2005 7:07 PM Wolf has replied
 Message 12 by MangyTiger, posted 08-05-2005 6:51 PM Wolf has not replied
 Message 15 by Aztraph, posted 08-07-2005 9:34 AM Wolf has not replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5667 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 2 of 22 (228808)
08-02-2005 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Wolf
08-02-2005 10:46 AM


Welcome to the forums.
Looking forward to seeing your posts and ideas.
I am a biblical literalist, conservative (I spend most of my time in the Coffee House on politics), soldier, and YEC.

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Wolf, posted 08-02-2005 10:46 AM Wolf has not replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 22 (228821)
08-02-2005 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Wolf
08-02-2005 10:46 AM


Welcome to EvC
Pull up a stump and set a spell. Keep your feet to the fire and the smoke never gets in your eyes.
At the bottom of this message are some links to things that will help make your stay here more enjoyable. If you haven yet, take the time to go through the Posts of the Month forum. It will point out some of the great messages that have passed through these doors.

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
Message 1
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
Other useful links:
Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Wolf, posted 08-02-2005 10:46 AM Wolf has not replied

  
Sylas
Member (Idle past 5250 days)
Posts: 766
From: Newcastle, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2002


Message 4 of 22 (229051)
08-03-2005 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Wolf
08-02-2005 10:46 AM


Welcome aboard. My own beliefs are no particular secret; but I'll leave them unstated for the moment.
You've got tremendous scope in the subjects that interest you... I look forward to reading more of your thoughts and your questions!
I have a special interest in the Big Bang. Reactions of different people vary enormously, and they are not always what you might expect! Some atheists see it as a final completion of things with no reference to God, but other atheists see it as a creationist notion because of the philosophically troubling origin in time. Some theists see it as a confirmation of an initial act of creation, but other theists see it as a denial of God with naturalism gone wild. It's been used by agnostics (eg Paul Davies) as an indicator of a grand design; and it's cited by theists (eg John Polkinghorne) as good science that says nothing much about creation at all.
But I think I'm drifting from the main topic, which is hail fellow well met to Wolf.
Cheers -- Sylas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Wolf, posted 08-02-2005 10:46 AM Wolf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Wolf, posted 08-03-2005 9:49 AM Sylas has not replied

  
Wolf
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 22 (229111)
08-03-2005 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Sylas
08-03-2005 4:40 AM


Thanks for the warm Welcomes!
I must say I am no expert at any of these fields, mainly looking for information. Also looking to learn a little debating skill as well
As in the past at work I have had little mini debates with a couple friends that are Christian. I can do this because they are not evangelistic. I love a little friendly debate. I have read several Past threads and see that thanks to a dedicated staff of Admin's the topics stay mainly on topic and do not contain a lot of bashing. Some I can tell some have a very closed mind though on both sides
For me I have pretty much lost faith in religions and to me the answer to life is to live and further the species of the human animal
.

"A Dwarf on a Giants Shoulder sees the Furthest of the Two!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Sylas, posted 08-03-2005 4:40 AM Sylas has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1334 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 6 of 22 (229443)
08-03-2005 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Wolf
08-02-2005 10:46 AM


I started to look up info on that topic alone and discovered that Christ might not have even existed.
it's very hard to prove the non-existance of something.

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Wolf, posted 08-02-2005 10:46 AM Wolf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Chiroptera, posted 08-03-2005 8:26 PM arachnophilia has not replied
 Message 10 by Wolf, posted 08-05-2005 9:59 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 22 (229477)
08-03-2005 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by arachnophilia
08-03-2005 7:07 PM


I think what Wolf might be referring to is the fact that there is no early evidence of the existence of Jesus outside of the Gospels, and that reasonable scenarios can be given to account for the creation of Christianity, including the conception of a mythical founder. That Jesus never existed is an entirely reasonable proposition, even if it's not necessarily the most parsimonious one.
However, it is, in principle, possible (if unlikely) to prove that Jesus did not exist -- if, for example, a series of ancient documents (such as letters) are found that can show the detailed evolution of Christianity from an aggregation of beliefs that do not require, initially, a single individual teacher giving the core teachings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 08-03-2005 7:07 PM arachnophilia has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by cavediver, posted 08-05-2005 5:51 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3634 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 8 of 22 (230028)
08-05-2005 5:51 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Chiroptera
08-03-2005 8:26 PM


However, it is, in principle, possible (if unlikely) to prove that Jesus did not exist -- if, for example, a series of ancient documents (such as letters) are found that can show the detailed evolution of Christianity from an aggregation of beliefs that do not require, initially, a single individual teacher giving the core teachings.
I'm not sure I follow... this would remove the need for an initial "Jesus" but hardly constitutes a proof of his non-existence.
To me the most direct connection back to Jesus is through Paul, not the Gospels. Paul certainly seems a very real character, who seems to have had a very real although hardly cordial connection with a guy named Peter. Nevertheless, Paul was under the very real impression that Peter had spent a good deal of time with this guy named Jesus. No proof of course, either way.
[Edit to tidy up]
This message has been edited by cavediver, 08-05-2005 05:52 AM

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Replies to this message:
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robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 22 (230061)
08-05-2005 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by cavediver
08-05-2005 5:51 AM


Paul and Jesus
Paul certainly seems a very real character, who seems to have had a very real although hardly cordial connection with a guy named Peter. Nevertheless, Paul was under the very real impression that Peter had spent a good deal of time with this guy named Jesus. No proof of course, either way.
Some book I read a while back--can't exactly remember the title now--puts forth the observation that Paul never speaks of Jesus' life on earth, but only in a spiritual sense, "Jesus in us" type of phraseology, as one would speak of the Holy Ghost. The author thought that very significant.

This message is a reply to:
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Wolf
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 22 (230091)
08-05-2005 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by arachnophilia
08-03-2005 7:07 PM


Yes, I was referring that (I do not want say fact to no supporting evidence) there is very little evidence besides the Gospels to support his existence. If indeed he did actually exist, my personal feelings are he was a philosopher and did not like how the current church was being run. People having to pay and only certain people being admitted into the temple at the whim of the church elders. Then the business of selling sacrificial animals. It became a moneymaking endeavor and he felt that was not how the temple should be run. Now when the Romans/Jews questioned him if he was the Son of God, his answer was yes. (I am going by memory so please excuse any mistakes in the actual words that were said) Now if god created man then of course he would be the Son of God, as would anyone. Down the line the story might have changed to him being the messiah. We all know of the experiment preformed in class, when the teacher tells the first student something, by the time it reaches the last one it is totally different. Also note how many stories parallel the story of Jesus, I mean even Hercules is very similar to Jesus. Many God men are out there that predate Jesus with very similar stories. Seems like it was the all time favorite folk tale. I know, Lucifer came along and started those tales because he knew Jesus was coming and wanted to confuse everyone. From what I have read it seems like Virgin births were not very uncommon nor were miraculous healings. Now Jesus may have lived and died on the cross. I think he was a man that believed in something very strongly and his death is proof of how much he believed in it. How many people through the ages have died for something they believed in. It is even happening today...

"A Dwarf on a Giants Shoulder sees the Furthest of the Two!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by arachnophilia, posted 08-03-2005 7:07 PM arachnophilia has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Tal, posted 08-05-2005 10:38 AM Wolf has replied

  
Tal
Member (Idle past 5667 days)
Posts: 1140
From: Fort Bragg, NC
Joined: 12-29-2004


Message 11 of 22 (230105)
08-05-2005 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Wolf
08-05-2005 9:59 AM


Also note how many stories parallel the story of Jesus, I mean even Hercules is very similar to Jesus. Many God men are out there that predate Jesus with very similar stories.
Would you care to debate this? Are prophecies (old testament) about specifics of Jesus' life considered evidence by you? My argument would go something like: The bible is (true imo) story of man's fall and God's plan to redeem him via a messiah, and that bible is one cohesive book telling that story.
If you have no desire to thats ok. But if you are interested I'll gladly give it a swing.

"Why not go to war just for oil? We need oil. What do Hollywood celebrities imagine fuels their private jets? How do they think their cocaine is delivered to them?"
--Ann Coulter

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Wolf, posted 08-05-2005 9:59 AM Wolf has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Wolf, posted 08-06-2005 2:14 AM Tal has replied

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6344 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 12 of 22 (230322)
08-05-2005 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Wolf
08-02-2005 10:46 AM


Your signature
A Dwarf on a Giants Shoulder sees the Furthest or the Two!
Doesn't that depend on the relative size of the giant's neck/head and the dwarf (and their eyesight)?

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Wolf, posted 08-02-2005 10:46 AM Wolf has not replied

  
Demon Strator
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 22 (230362)
08-05-2005 10:59 PM


Wolf,
Your views are very similar to mine. I have had the same types of events in my life that make me a non-believer in the Bible story. I am also not an Athiest, but it is looking more and more legitimate. I have recently read a book by Michael Shermer called "How We Believe." and I think it would be a tremendous insight for you as well. He has a couple more very good books out about this type of stuff. Look him up on Amazon.com and let me know what you think.
Demon
This message has been edited by Demon Strator, 08-05-2005 11:01 PM

"EVIL: that which one believes of others"
- H.L. Mencken

  
Wolf
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 22 (230380)
08-06-2005 2:14 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Tal
08-05-2005 10:38 AM


I do not think I would want to debate you as my knowledge of bible passages is very limited. However I would be interested in the OT prophecies that foretold his coming.
Nice to meet you Demon Strator, I like this place; nice to have a heavy moderated board so it does not turn into a school fight
Size does matter... but my Giant is nearsighted and my Dwarf has 20/15 after lasik correction.
This message has been edited by Wolf, 08-05-2005 11:16 PM

"A Dwarf on a Giants Shoulder sees the Furthest of the Two!"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Tal, posted 08-05-2005 10:38 AM Tal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Tal, posted 08-09-2005 1:09 PM Wolf has not replied

  
Aztraph
Member (Idle past 6189 days)
Posts: 53
From: Seymour, Indiana, United States
Joined: 07-25-2005


Message 15 of 22 (230663)
08-07-2005 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Wolf
08-02-2005 10:46 AM


Wolf, I know what you mean, having no direct evidence to support creationism, (i have a nephew who would fervently dissagree, i'll try to get his reference matterial and check it's validity) But oddly enough, the current flavor of the decade on physics and how the universe is composed (string theory) is more of a philosophical view, it's impossible to prove or disprove, the math just kinda fits.
So you see, there is a certain lake of evidence on both sides, and there will always be a certain level of doubt, kinda like the weak link in both chains.
I personally believe that the Universe is diverse enough for both to be correct(don't ask me to explain now), i do not believe the bible is historicaly accurate, after all, it may have been INSPIRED by God, but it was writen and translated by MAN.
And the evolution theory, for all it's logic, cannot explain the idea of love, or its power.
I realize that this doesn't help much, but i hope you decide for youreslf what to believe in. I look forward to your future posts.

That which does not kill us, makes us stranger.-T.G.
Aztraph

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Wolf, posted 08-02-2005 10:46 AM Wolf has not replied

  
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